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[Music]

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you're in the para cast the gold

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standard of paranormal radio and now

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here's gene Steinberg so last week we

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had rapper casings he's author of UFOs

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and nukes concentrating primarily on

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UFOs seen in and around nuclear

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installations primarily in the USA but

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also some cases around the world and he

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has an incredible knowledge of

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everything about pepper so when you talk

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to him specifically if anything that

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relates to that he has it all he's been

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studying this stuff for more than 30

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years the only concern I have about

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investigations of that nature Chris is

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whether or not it leads to tunnel vision

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if you focus so much on your specialty

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then suddenly maybe you're missing

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things around the periphery yeah that's

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you know always a you know a possible

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kind of stumbling block but I think in

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Roberts case he's he's really grounded

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he seems to have a very good objective

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sense about his work he does keep up to

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speed I think in the field in general

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unlike some people who tend to really

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like you say specialize and focus in on

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on a single aspect but I really enjoyed

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the show and I really you know admire

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four decades worth of work that he's put

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into it and it's unfortunate that he has

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his Emma Woods OCD character out there

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that's been dogging him maybe there's

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something to it I think an article came

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out last week pertaining to that

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particular controversy of this Carlson

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character I'm gonna start calling him

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Emma Carlson what we're talking about

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here there's a character who calls

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herself Emma Woods who has been stalking

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UFO abduction researcher David Jacobs

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for several years that doesn't mean she

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doesn't have a case or anything but

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she's gotten so obsessive about this

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stalking that it destroys whatever case

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she might have it really does the whole

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and anonymity thing really bothers me

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she's put up a website she posts and

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tons of boards all under a pseudonym all

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for the sole purpose

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bringing down David Jacobson I don't

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agree like like you mentioned about

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yourself I I don't agree with a lot of

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Jacobs conclusions I I do have a sense

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that they're rather fear-based

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but I don't think anybody should have to

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go through what he's been going through

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with this woman I mean sure he set

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himself up doing hypnotic regressions

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over the phone long distance that sort

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of thing but it's getting to the point

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of beyond ridiculousness when when

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somebody is just on a vendetta to just

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slag you in every which way possible so

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oh well just much luck to Hastings and

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his his Emma Carlson and David Jacobs

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and his Emma woods

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well Jacobs told me last I heard from

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him via email that he was working on a

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more extensive rebuttal to her claims so

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maybe that will put the matter to rest

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but I kind of doubt it although things

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have been pretty quiet I think part of

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the reason the things are pretty quiet

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is more and more forums will not allow

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Emma woods to post until she presents

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some authentication as to who she really

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is yeah I mean you can attack anybody

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from the position of anonymity but

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you're attacking them by name it's not

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two anonymous people attacking each

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other and you have to think - what can

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she fear in terms of repercussions

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because Jacobs knows who she is she has

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certainly identified herself to a few of

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the people who support her I don't know

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maybe we shouldn't raise that hornet's

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nest let's let sleeping dogs lie but you

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know here at the power cast we have our

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own group of house critics in large part

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we ignore them I seldom respond to them

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I don't think you have more than once or

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twice in your fabulous faded career here

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I do try to stay above the fray I try to

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chip in my two cents wherever I think it

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might be appropriate and maybe give

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people a little little extra you know

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angle to look at a particular topic or

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issue but this whole idea of hiding

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behind avatars and anonymous names I've

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always had a problem with it of course

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you and I when we post everybody knows

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who we are but you know you get some of

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these people with these with these

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anonymous tags and and I think it

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emboldened them to

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get out of out of them outside of

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themselves and and be I think a little

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bit more strident than maybe they

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normally would I can't recall who told

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me this story but they were able to find

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out who a person was it was dogging them

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anonymously online and they showed up at

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their house it freaked them out

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I'd never go to that to those links but

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it is you know I'm willing to to put my

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reputation you know in my anonymity to

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rest and and just be Who I am and I

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think more people out there should do

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that and this whole excuse of well if my

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job found out I was posted on a UFO

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board I get fired I mean that's just a

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convenient excuse I think we're farther

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down the road than having to be too

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concerned about that unless you're some

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you know lead scientist at a National

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Lab maybe then you'd have something to

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worry about but for the most part I

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don't think people really have have that

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excuse to hang their anonymity on

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anymore I think it's this whole subject

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is is pretty much mainstream now and we

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need to move forward and you know

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everybody step up and you know claim

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their opinions and and stand behind them

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as as a real person instead of an

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anonymous avatar and tag and of course

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if you are a woman living in disability

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in New Zealand do you think the

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paparazzi is gonna basically fly across

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the ocean and seek you out oh yeah

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definitely

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oh man that happened the beaten path

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through the sheep herds to herd or New

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Zealand there's more sheep than humans

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and I think what's the saying the men

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are men the women are men and the sheep

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are all nervous bad joke I will not say

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anything because they claim I tell bad

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jokes but the real truth is I don't tell

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jokes occasionally I'll throw one of

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these old disc jockey puns out but I do

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not tell jokes want to tell you one

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thing very quickly about old stuff or an

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old story lately I've been coming across

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old friends that I knew in the early

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stages of my radio career such as a guy

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named Bob kite or RJ kite who does now

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the announcing for some of our bumpers

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over on the tech night out live and some

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of you who notice or care about these

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things you notice on our theme song we

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have a new voice there but he's somebody

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I've known from

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years bob Zanotti who actually ran a

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paranormal radio show on a college

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station in new jersey years ago I was a

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guest on the show and now after all

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these years I guess he sought us out and

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he graciously agreed to do those

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introductions for the show Bobson on t

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v-- lentes is manly voice he did indeed

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and he's a professional voice-over

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artist as you can tell from the quality

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of what he does but he also has a great

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collection of the old shows that he did

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featuring famous UFO personalities who

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are no longer here and I'm kind of

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hoping that we'll get together with Bob

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in the very near future and get some of

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this stuff back on the air I guess he

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has to digitize the old cassettes and

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reel-to-reel tape files or something

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we'll get him on the air you'll hear

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people like August see Roberts Dominick

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the chassis and other people no longer

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with us

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forgotten figures in the UFO field and

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perhaps they had very fascinating things

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to say we're also hoping to put together

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a show on Long John Nebel now his shows

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go back to the 50s I don't know if

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there's any copyright or heirs to Long

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John who might object if we ran segments

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on the air we'll have to check about

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permissions but I'd love to do that

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because I think a lot of fascinating

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things happen there and maybe listeners

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then can judge fairly whether or not

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we've learned anything about paranormal

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investigations specifically UFO

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investigations in any case Chris you set

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up this week's show ants all on a book

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and the give you let me give you the

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name of the book and then you can

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explain what this is going about it's

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called how the hippies save physics

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science counterculture and the quantum

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revival or what the heck is that about

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well it's a long story and I'm sure

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David Kiser is going to give us a really

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good entertaining overview of this

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wonderful saga that's been going on

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still going on actually to this day but

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in the early 70s there are a group

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of shall we say alternative thinking

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physicist Jack Sarfatti Nick Herbert

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Paul SOG Fred Alan wolf was a whole

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group of these guys that were real

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radical sort of new thinking physicists

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you know quantum physicists and they

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they loosely formed a group called the

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the fundamental fundamental physics

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group of course fundamental and physics

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are misspelled with F's instead of ph's

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and stuff and and they they were rumored

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to imbibe and quite a quite a wide

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assortment of psychedelics as was the

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custom at the time and there's some

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question this is one thing I want to

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bring up with Kaiser is I mean what role

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did the psychedelics play in these in

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their thinking because they they came up

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with some radical ideas including

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faster-than-light communication and

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fascinating yeah that's gonna be David

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[Music]

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I've gotta tell you about this

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we want to hear from you if you have a

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comment or question about the podcast

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00:14:26,530 --> 00:14:22,580
send it to news at the para cast com

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that's news at the para cast calm and

332
00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:28,220
don't forget to visit our famous pair

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cast community forums at forum dot the

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para cast comm get in on all the action

335
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at forum dot the para cast comm hey

336
00:14:45,790 --> 00:14:43,040
we're back at the para cast with Gene

337
00:14:48,460 --> 00:14:45,800
and Chris and it's my pleasure to

338
00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:48,470
announce and introduced to the audience

339
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:51,769
our today's guest which is David Kaiser

340
00:14:58,930 --> 00:14:55,730
he's MIT graduate and he's written a

341
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:58,940
very provocative book that I read a

342
00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:00,800
review of the book and and David I just

343
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:03,950
instantly knew that we would just we

344
00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:05,570
should get you on the show and talk

345
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:07,670
about this it's a little bit outside of

346
00:15:12,819 --> 00:15:10,250
our normal purview which is the

347
00:15:14,590 --> 00:15:12,829
paranormal but when you look at people

348
00:15:16,509 --> 00:15:14,600
like Jax are foggy and Nick Herbert

349
00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:16,519
these these guys are they're pretty

350
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:18,230
paranormal in their own ways so I

351
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:20,000
thought that this would be a good

352
00:15:24,220 --> 00:15:22,370
opportunity to open up our subject

353
00:15:26,290 --> 00:15:24,230
matter on the show and get you on I

354
00:15:28,180 --> 00:15:26,300
really enjoyed the book it was very

355
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:28,190
entertaining you were able to take

356
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,170
pretty complex subject matter and

357
00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:32,240
present it in an easy-to-understand

358
00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:32,990
layman

359
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:36,980
there's a little math in there but

360
00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:38,930
nothing you know it's not rocket science

361
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:41,390
just the whole way that you were able to

362
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:45,290
present this this wonderful process that

363
00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:46,490
these gentlemen went through the

364
00:15:50,740 --> 00:15:48,560
scientists went through and are still

365
00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:50,750
going through to some some extent we'll

366
00:15:53,829 --> 00:15:52,310
talk about that I'm sure later on in the

367
00:15:55,449 --> 00:15:53,839
show what some of these gentlemen are up

368
00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:55,459
to but why don't you give us a little

369
00:15:59,860 --> 00:15:57,890
background on yourself and tell us a

370
00:16:02,260 --> 00:15:59,870
little bit about yourself but also how

371
00:16:05,139 --> 00:16:02,270
you became involved in writing this book

372
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:05,149
how they helped you save physics sure I

373
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:07,250
should start off with just a quick

374
00:16:11,019 --> 00:16:09,050
correction actually I am I'm not an MIT

375
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:11,029
graduate but I do teach there now so I'm

376
00:16:15,579 --> 00:16:12,560
trying to make more MIT graduates but

377
00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:15,589
anyway my ask you fast question then we

378
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:17,750
have a controversy in the pound in the

379
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:20,240
field about a guy named Philip and Brad

380
00:16:26,439 --> 00:16:23,510
know who claims he went to MIT did you

381
00:16:27,460 --> 00:16:26,449
ever hear that's not conclusive by the

382
00:16:30,460 --> 00:16:27,470
way well they

383
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:30,470
either that's the problem go ahead okay

384
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:32,210
so I'm just gonna say that you know

385
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:34,310
right now I am a professor at MIT I

386
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,770
teach both in the program and science

387
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:38,720
technology and society and also in the

388
00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:40,970
Department of Physics and I came to this

389
00:16:44,410 --> 00:16:42,500
topic the way that the book really got

390
00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:44,420
started was you know as a as a kid as a

391
00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:45,980
high school kid I was an avid reader

392
00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:48,260
popular science books I wanted to read

393
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:49,670
haven't got get my hands on about modern

394
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:51,680
physics and among the many many you know

395
00:16:55,510 --> 00:16:53,750
kind of paperbacks that I got really

396
00:16:57,250 --> 00:16:55,520
excited about as a kid one was Fritjof

397
00:16:58,690 --> 00:16:57,260
koppers built the DAO of physics the

398
00:17:00,610 --> 00:16:58,700
book is probably well known to many of

399
00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:00,620
your listeners runaway amazing hill

400
00:17:04,060 --> 00:17:02,480
international blockbuster bestseller

401
00:17:05,170 --> 00:17:04,070
these days it turns out that's not how

402
00:17:07,210 --> 00:17:05,180
it started out but that's certainly

403
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:07,220
where is today and so I read that book

404
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:09,290
as a kid and to be honest I wasn't all

405
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:11,510
that excited or really into that kind of

406
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:14,480
Eastern spirituality side but I was

407
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:16,730
really enamored of his explanations his

408
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:19,130
introduction to ideas from relativity

409
00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:20,930
and quantum theory and that book really

410
00:17:24,610 --> 00:17:22,430
really stuck with me when I got to

411
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:24,620
college I got really excited about the

412
00:17:27,790 --> 00:17:26,450
notion of Bell's Theorem and quantum

413
00:17:30,370 --> 00:17:27,800
entanglement of trouble we'll talk about

414
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:30,380
it some in some detail later on but that

415
00:17:33,790 --> 00:17:32,240
was the sort of quantum weirdness the

416
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:33,800
the notion that quantum theory is

417
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:35,810
painting a picture for us of the world

418
00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:38,090
that just seems so out of whack with our

419
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:39,470
intuitions and with what we're used to

420
00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:41,210
that was really captivating I mean I

421
00:17:44,260 --> 00:17:42,500
really grabbed and then in grad school

422
00:17:47,230 --> 00:17:44,270
is working on my physics dissertation I

423
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:47,240
had the opportunity to do a benchtop

424
00:17:51,850 --> 00:17:49,910
experiment on entanglement on Bell's

425
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:51,860
Theorem it turns out the very first

426
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:54,650
version of that experiment was done by a

427
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:57,200
physicist named John clauser and when I

428
00:18:00,490 --> 00:17:58,790
did a little more digging it turns out

429
00:18:02,050 --> 00:18:00,500
clauser had done that experiment in

430
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:02,060
Berkeley in the 70s

431
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,650
Fritjof copper who wrote the dowel

432
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:05,600
physics was also in Berkeley in

433
00:18:08,590 --> 00:18:07,070
Stephanies around that same time in fact

434
00:18:10,540 --> 00:18:08,600
they knew each other they were both

435
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:10,550
members of this of this little weird

436
00:18:14,530 --> 00:18:13,370
kind of eccentric ragtag group they

437
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:14,540
called themselves the fundamental

438
00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:15,650
physics group and that's the group that

439
00:18:19,420 --> 00:18:17,630
I really focus on for this book so I do

440
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:19,430
in looking in hindsight you know they're

441
00:18:23,230 --> 00:18:21,410
many kind of you know arrows along the

442
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:23,240
way they led me to this group and to try

443
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:25,490
to write that book well first of all you

444
00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:27,170
know Bell's Theorem really does play an

445
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:29,900
important it's a pivotal subject in the

446
00:18:34,450 --> 00:18:33,110
book and in these scientists process why

447
00:18:36,370 --> 00:18:34,460
don't you give us kind of a layman's

448
00:18:38,650 --> 00:18:36,380
thumbnail sketch of what Bell's Theorem

449
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:38,660
is so our listeners can understand how

450
00:18:43,870 --> 00:18:40,130
these guys were

451
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:43,880
excited and inspired to to work in this

452
00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:46,970
realm sure a belter is one of these you

453
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:47,870
know quintessential

454
00:18:51,850 --> 00:18:49,850
examples of just quantum weirdness it's

455
00:18:53,919 --> 00:18:51,860
it's on a level with Schrodinger's cat

456
00:18:55,870 --> 00:18:53,929
or you know you name your favorite weird

457
00:18:57,820 --> 00:18:55,880
thought expand so Belgium's name for

458
00:19:00,370 --> 00:18:57,830
business with John Bell he published in

459
00:19:03,580 --> 00:19:00,380
a really totally obscure journal in 1964

460
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:03,590
got completely ignored by physicists for

461
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:05,570
a long time by the group in Berkeley

462
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:07,070
that I write about they were among the

463
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:08,570
earliest to really pick up on this and

464
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:10,850
get excited so Bell's Theorem seems to

465
00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:13,250
suggest that quantum particles that had

466
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:15,799
interacted at some point in the past in

467
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:17,510
all kinds about you pretty mundane ways

468
00:19:21,070 --> 00:19:19,490
nothing fancy about it that they can

469
00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:21,080
retain a kind of connection with each

470
00:19:25,779 --> 00:19:23,030
other even if those particles have moved

471
00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:25,789
arbitrarily far apart so what it seems

472
00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:27,590
to implies if we sort of tickle a

473
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:29,179
particle here we make some measurements

474
00:19:33,490 --> 00:19:31,490
on an electron completely mundane

475
00:19:35,409 --> 00:19:33,500
straightforward thing it should make its

476
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:35,419
partner particle dance instantly

477
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:37,970
instantaneously even if that particle is

478
00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:40,400
you know a galaxy away it boggles the

479
00:19:43,870 --> 00:19:42,080
mind that these two things which are no

480
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:43,880
longer in contact with each other they

481
00:19:48,190 --> 00:19:46,130
stopped interacting long ago and yet

482
00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:48,200
they can retain this almost like a kind

483
00:19:52,029 --> 00:19:50,480
of telepathic style link if like that's

484
00:19:53,409 --> 00:19:52,039
when people struggle to put those

485
00:19:54,850 --> 00:19:53,419
equations in the words they come up with

486
00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:54,860
words like that there's a weird

487
00:19:58,510 --> 00:19:56,990
connection between them that is really

488
00:20:00,430 --> 00:19:58,520
not like what we would see around us at

489
00:20:02,590 --> 00:20:00,440
least in the ordinary ordinary world so

490
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:02,600
Bell's Theorem is one of these examples

491
00:20:06,039 --> 00:20:04,130
where the quantum world can just depart

492
00:20:08,289 --> 00:20:06,049
really quite radically from our

493
00:20:10,450 --> 00:20:08,299
expectations so this is really a bell

494
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:10,460
rock sort of foundation to quantum

495
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:16,450
Bell's Theorem nowadays is often known

496
00:20:20,260 --> 00:20:18,770
as quite an entanglement or nonlocality

497
00:20:23,049 --> 00:20:20,270
these are all basically pointing the

498
00:20:24,580 --> 00:20:23,059
same idea well what about it I mean

499
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:24,590
let's let's start kind of at the

500
00:20:29,470 --> 00:20:26,240
beginning once you give us a sense of

501
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:29,480
who these fundamental physics groups

502
00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:32,570
were who the individuals were and kind

503
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:34,190
of lets that set the stage a little bit

504
00:20:38,590 --> 00:20:38,030
about the the times around that the Bay

505
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:38,600
Area

506
00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:40,250
these are Wilder willie times and these

507
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:43,700
guys I don't think I think it's safe to

508
00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:46,490
say that they were quite psychedelically

509
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:49,240
aware they I'm sure they were doing

510
00:20:53,530 --> 00:20:52,159
psychedelics like most people of their

511
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:53,540
age at that time

512
00:20:58,450 --> 00:20:56,480
once you give us a sense of how this

513
00:21:00,190 --> 00:20:58,460
group got together you know the

514
00:21:03,940 --> 00:21:00,200
struggles that they had in the beginning

515
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:03,950
of their process and sort of give us a

516
00:21:09,730 --> 00:21:06,890
sense of the you know the the landscape

517
00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:09,740
there sure yeah you know the the group

518
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:11,000
that they formed they called themselves

519
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:12,710
very playful title the fun a little

520
00:21:15,490 --> 00:21:14,210
physics group they spelled physics with

521
00:21:17,890 --> 00:21:15,500
an F they're clearly having a good time

522
00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:17,900
and it really had a core of maybe eight

523
00:21:22,510 --> 00:21:20,750
or ten members the group was would the

524
00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:22,520
end of the weekly meetings would grow or

525
00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:24,680
contract it could be as many as 40 or 50

526
00:21:27,790 --> 00:21:25,820
but there's only about eight or ten of

527
00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:27,800
them who kind of saw it through every

528
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:29,900
week for about almost four years for the

529
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:31,760
long long-running informal but

530
00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:33,770
long-running group and like you say

531
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:35,420
these were basically folks who were

532
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:37,010
largely down-on-her-luck at the time

533
00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:39,110
they had almost all of them had

534
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:41,900
completed PhDs in physics from some of

535
00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:44,210
the nation's most elite Snee a premier

536
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,860
graduate program these were incredibly

537
00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:47,840
well trained smart physicists you know

538
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:49,670
places like Columbia and Stanford and

539
00:21:52,540 --> 00:21:51,050
Berkeley and Illinois and you know you

540
00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:52,550
name it but they had finished their

541
00:21:57,130 --> 00:21:54,710
training just at when the bottom fell

542
00:21:59,260 --> 00:21:57,140
out of the physics profession it was an

543
00:22:01,090 --> 00:21:59,270
incredibly hard time to get anything

544
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:01,100
like a kind of standard job in physics

545
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:04,130
in the early 70s at one point in 1971

546
00:22:08,140 --> 00:22:06,290
for example their more than a thousand

547
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:08,150
young physicists registered looking for

548
00:22:12,970 --> 00:22:11,450
jobs and 50 jobs on offer a thousand 250

549
00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:12,980
and we were talking you know that the

550
00:22:16,930 --> 00:22:14,780
market had just fallen through the floor

551
00:22:19,060 --> 00:22:16,940
a kind of speculative bubble had burst

552
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:19,070
is like a Bernie Madoff kind of scheme

553
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:21,650
you know go on I wanted to just mention

554
00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:24,110
here it seems like we're reliving you've

555
00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:25,940
had experience today because the bottom

556
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:27,800
has fallen out today you have people

557
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:29,690
with advanced degrees today who are

558
00:22:33,970 --> 00:22:31,730
lucky to get employed at a fast-food

559
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:33,980
restaurant for one of the same reasons

560
00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:35,930
yeah that's right and so we've gone

561
00:22:39,670 --> 00:22:37,550
through these blumenbach cycles actually

562
00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:39,680
a few times in in reading last few

563
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:41,900
decades I want again to this as we

564
00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:43,490
progress through our segments of the

565
00:22:48,910 --> 00:22:46,670
show our guest is David Kaiser yes he is

566
00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:48,920
a professor at MIT you can find his name

567
00:22:55,150 --> 00:22:51,470
on their site it's real this time we got

568
00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:55,160
somebody from MIT the co-host is Chris

569
00:23:01,800 --> 00:22:58,160
O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're in the

570
00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:05,019
[Music]

571
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:08,190
Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned

572
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out from the Gulf War lives tortured by

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relentless perplexing nightmares

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nightmares of a horrific battle in deep

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space and of a mysterious woman's

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suffering and agony for her devastated

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world a woman not yet born calling

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across centuries to him then a

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great talk radio

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are you more important search

669
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we are the GCM radio network hello this

670
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:15,480
is John burrows one of the witnesses to

671
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:17,970
the Rendlesham UFO incident you're

672
00:27:25,390 --> 00:27:20,100
listening to the podcast the gold

673
00:27:31,150 --> 00:27:27,670
we're back gene and Kris talking to

674
00:27:32,740 --> 00:27:31,160
David Kiser professor at MIT author of

675
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:32,750
and let me give you the full name of the

676
00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:36,110
book here how the hippie saved physics

677
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:39,200
science counterculture and the quantum

678
00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:41,360
revival and right now he's talking about

679
00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:44,630
this culture of this group of scientists

680
00:27:49,090 --> 00:27:46,940
who couldn't get a job because the

681
00:27:51,210 --> 00:27:49,100
bottom had fallen out I guess of the

682
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:51,220
business and we recall also people like

683
00:27:57,010 --> 00:27:54,890
Stanton Friedman nuclear physicists he

684
00:27:59,530 --> 00:27:57,020
reached situation where he couldn't find

685
00:28:03,160 --> 00:27:59,540
employment except as a UFO investigator

686
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:03,170
so David Kiser you couldn't become a UFO

687
00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:06,559
investigator you didn't know not this

688
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:08,030
time around not in this life anyway

689
00:28:13,419 --> 00:28:11,090
but it's true the folks I focus on for

690
00:28:14,770 --> 00:28:13,429
the book you they were they had to make

691
00:28:16,330 --> 00:28:14,780
a different way in the world so they

692
00:28:18,190 --> 00:28:16,340
couldn't just do what their teachers

693
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:18,200
generation had done in terms of you know

694
00:28:22,090 --> 00:28:20,210
the the expected routine you get your

695
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:22,100
PhD from a good place you get a good job

696
00:28:26,049 --> 00:28:24,170
you do your mainstream research through

697
00:28:28,150 --> 00:28:26,059
no fault of their own this is this

698
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:28,160
generation then members like this

699
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:29,630
birthday group they were really just

700
00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:31,610
caught off guard and so what amazed me

701
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:33,679
about the story they found each other

702
00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:34,850
through different ways it kind of

703
00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:37,190
bumbled along and the roads led them to

704
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:40,280
Berkeley I always joke is it's 1973 you

705
00:28:43,450 --> 00:28:41,360
got time on your hands my little go to

706
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:43,460
Berkeley was an amazing place to be as

707
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:45,050
I'm sure we'll talk about and once they

708
00:28:47,710 --> 00:28:46,070
got there through different ways

709
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:47,720
different things that brought them there

710
00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:49,370
they pretty quickly found each other and

711
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:51,320
they found kind of like-minded people

712
00:28:55,930 --> 00:28:53,690
who are incredibly passionate about

713
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:55,940
about modern physics about what it might

714
00:29:00,130 --> 00:28:58,370
imply but where it might lead who who

715
00:29:01,930 --> 00:29:00,140
had seen those questions really kind of

716
00:29:03,790 --> 00:29:01,940
denigrated in their formal training so

717
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,800
they were trained to be extremely good

718
00:29:06,970 --> 00:29:05,360
with their calculations like they could

719
00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:06,980
sling the equations around with the best

720
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:08,990
of them but they hadn't been encouraged

721
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:10,610
and in fact their coursework it really

722
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:13,010
had really just discouraged any other

723
00:29:17,049 --> 00:29:15,530
kind of philosophical interpretive what

724
00:29:18,730 --> 00:29:17,059
does it all mean kind of stuff you know

725
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:18,740
and that's what this group was really

726
00:29:21,730 --> 00:29:20,090
hungry for and they figured they had

727
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:21,740
time on her hands they weren't punching

728
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:23,120
the clock anymore they found each other

729
00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:25,130
they had this kind of shared interest as

730
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:27,110
they formed this very informal but very

731
00:29:30,820 --> 00:29:29,510
kind of spirited group the fundamental

732
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:30,830
physics group and they met together

733
00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:33,650
every Friday afternoon made a range for

734
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:35,000
some speakers that have kind of

735
00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:37,370
brainstorming sessions and sometimes

736
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:38,960
they would truck on down

737
00:29:42,970 --> 00:29:40,610
bring the whole show down to the Esalen

738
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:42,980
Institute in Big Sur California about

739
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:45,529
150 miles south of San Francisco right

740
00:29:49,690 --> 00:29:47,450
on the coast you'll breathtakingly

741
00:29:51,970 --> 00:29:49,700
beautiful setting and as long as I'm

742
00:29:54,430 --> 00:29:51,980
sure you know is famous even at the time

743
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:54,440
for a kind of incubator of the new age

744
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:57,110
right all things new age or a cult

745
00:30:01,779 --> 00:29:59,360
whether it was Eastern mysticism or

746
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:01,789
psychedelic drugs or yoga which once

747
00:30:04,990 --> 00:30:04,010
seemed very radical vegetarianism things

748
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:05,000
that you know some of which now seem

749
00:30:08,289 --> 00:30:06,770
actually pretty straightforward and it

750
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:08,299
turns out the single longest-running

751
00:30:12,669 --> 00:30:10,610
seminar series in Epsilon's history was

752
00:30:14,019 --> 00:30:12,679
actually on quantum mechanics and the

753
00:30:15,340 --> 00:30:14,029
nature of reality these got through

754
00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:15,350
physicists that I'm that I wrote about

755
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:18,260
we're organizing every year for the

756
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:20,480
better part of two decades it was that

757
00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:23,210
was it was was hot stuff at f1 around

758
00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:25,190
the hot tubs and all the rest so these

759
00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:27,110
these folks were carving out a kind of

760
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:29,240
parallel universe for themselves to

761
00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:30,890
pursue these questions that had had

762
00:30:34,659 --> 00:30:33,140
really fallen out of favor or fallen out

763
00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:34,669
of the curriculum for mainstream critics

764
00:30:39,549 --> 00:30:37,070
so why don't you give us a sense of some

765
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:39,559
of the early thinking that they they

766
00:30:43,299 --> 00:30:41,090
bounced around with each other and some

767
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:43,309
of the early attempts at at creating

768
00:30:47,169 --> 00:30:45,230
hypotheses and then doing the work that

769
00:30:48,940 --> 00:30:47,179
it would take to to prove them and get

770
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:48,950
published or so you know one of the

771
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:50,690
things that really mesmerized the

772
00:30:54,159 --> 00:30:52,850
members the group was Belcher we're just

773
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:54,169
talking about a moment ago this notion

774
00:30:57,850 --> 00:30:56,450
quite an entanglement of particles that

775
00:30:59,710 --> 00:30:57,860
could be separated in space but still

776
00:31:01,389 --> 00:30:59,720
share this kind of instant connection

777
00:31:03,490 --> 00:31:01,399
and they were among the earliest

778
00:31:04,659 --> 00:31:03,500
physicists anywhere in the world and

779
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:04,669
take that seriously they weren't the

780
00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:06,110
only ones but they were they were we

781
00:31:09,789 --> 00:31:08,270
might say the early adopters go back and

782
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:09,799
look at who published articles on Bell's

783
00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:12,110
Theorem during the first fifteen years

784
00:31:16,419 --> 00:31:14,360
after bells original publication and

785
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:16,429
they dominated by members of this group

786
00:31:22,210 --> 00:31:19,130
so not exclusive but clearly you know in

787
00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:22,220
the game early and and these folks were

788
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:23,960
worried about entanglement and

789
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:25,730
nonlocality about how quantum theory

790
00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:28,250
violates our ordinary experience but

791
00:31:31,299 --> 00:31:29,630
they also some of them and we're also

792
00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:31,309
curious about would this help explain

793
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:34,220
other kind of strange phenomena around

794
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:35,600
them and this is where I think it

795
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:36,350
matters a great deal

796
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:37,820
that they were sitting in the Bay Area

797
00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:40,399
in the 70s as a lot of stuff was getting

798
00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:43,220
attention in kind of in the air and one

799
00:31:48,430 --> 00:31:46,190
topic was for example uri geller the

800
00:31:50,860 --> 00:31:48,440
israeli performer who then began to

801
00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:50,870
claim he had genuine psychic abilities

802
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:52,580
he was whisked to the United States for

803
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:54,710
careful scientific study one of the

804
00:31:58,690 --> 00:31:56,450
first places he went to her was brought

805
00:32:01,419 --> 00:31:58,700
to was in the Bay Area the Stanford

806
00:32:03,460 --> 00:32:01,429
Research Institute or as RI it was a

807
00:32:05,049 --> 00:32:03,470
defense contract and laboratory they had

808
00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:05,059
only recently been spun off from

809
00:32:07,659 --> 00:32:06,230
Stanford University

810
00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:07,669
so ordinarily they did you know tests

811
00:32:10,750 --> 00:32:09,049
for the Pentagon or some private

812
00:32:13,149 --> 00:32:10,760
industry and all of a sudden they were

813
00:32:14,620 --> 00:32:13,159
the group @sr I again sort of with time

814
00:32:17,289 --> 00:32:14,630
on their hands during this this low

815
00:32:18,879 --> 00:32:17,299
point in the physics profession and they

816
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:18,889
began studying people like Geller in

817
00:32:23,620 --> 00:32:21,770
fact many other people that they had you

818
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:23,630
know mind-reading abilities did they

819
00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:25,510
actually come to any conclusions

820
00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:28,190
positive or negative about these alleged

821
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:30,409
abilities this is very important they

822
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:31,700
did they came to the conclusion they

823
00:32:34,629 --> 00:32:33,320
didn't sway everyone who tried to listen

824
00:32:36,639 --> 00:32:34,639
to them but they were convinced these

825
00:32:37,779 --> 00:32:36,649
are physicists how to top and Russell

826
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:37,789
Targ and in fact it's a whole group

827
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:40,250
there at one point they got you know

828
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:42,049
articles into some of the most

829
00:32:45,940 --> 00:32:43,850
prestigious peer-reviewed journals on

830
00:32:48,250 --> 00:32:45,950
the planet like the journal Nature

831
00:32:50,620 --> 00:32:48,260
Proceedings of the IEEE Tripoli the

832
00:32:52,450 --> 00:32:50,630
electric engineering Association where

833
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:52,460
they they were conducting experimental

834
00:32:56,529 --> 00:32:54,799
tests laboratory tests under what they

835
00:32:58,930 --> 00:32:56,539
considered you know carefully controlled

836
00:33:00,610 --> 00:32:58,940
conditions for people like a Geller in

837
00:33:03,129 --> 00:33:00,620
fact I said many others names might not

838
00:33:05,159 --> 00:33:03,139
be well known today of things like we

839
00:33:07,450 --> 00:33:05,169
might casually call mind-reading

840
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:07,460
telekinesis these kinds of things and so

841
00:33:11,879 --> 00:33:09,919
this was getting pressed not only in

842
00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:11,889
kind of a hip underground you know

843
00:33:15,970 --> 00:33:14,750
countercultures scene but also fun page

844
00:33:17,950 --> 00:33:15,980
news at the time and the San Francisco

845
00:33:20,019 --> 00:33:17,960
Chronicle and other kind of mainstream

846
00:33:22,210 --> 00:33:20,029
newspapers and so these physicists that

847
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:22,220
I wrote about tor in Berkeley you know

848
00:33:25,810 --> 00:33:23,450
some of them were reading about this

849
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:25,820
stuff they got incredibly excited it

850
00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:27,710
began they began to wonder whether this

851
00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:30,529
mind-reading or telepathy or you know

852
00:33:35,260 --> 00:33:33,470
ESP type stuff maybe that was an

853
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:35,270
instance maybe that could be explained

854
00:33:40,419 --> 00:33:37,730
by this weird quantum thing like like

855
00:33:42,190 --> 00:33:40,429
not nonlocality or entanglement so maybe

856
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:42,200
no they had an extra some of them had an

857
00:33:45,820 --> 00:33:44,210
extra impetus to worry about the kind of

858
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:45,830
grand meaning of quantum theory because

859
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:47,570
they thought it could account for even

860
00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:49,490
wider range of the phenomena like these

861
00:33:54,399 --> 00:33:51,830
tests at Fri they got really interested

862
00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:54,409
in that well at the time I mean phrases

863
00:33:59,649 --> 00:33:57,470
like counterfactual in definiteness and

864
00:34:01,690 --> 00:33:59,659
nonlocality ittan states these are

865
00:34:03,610 --> 00:34:01,700
really difficult subjects and in terms

866
00:34:05,070 --> 00:34:03,620
to communicate to people even even

867
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:05,080
people with you know the

868
00:34:12,510 --> 00:34:07,710
sense of Education and these guys were

869
00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:12,520
they in in their own sort of I think

870
00:34:17,460 --> 00:34:15,790
unique way let's put it got involved in

871
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:17,470
in in in in really trying to communicate

872
00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:19,570
these subjects and one of the things

873
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:21,520
that I've it's always struck me is you

874
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:24,970
know how s RI the Targ and Puthoff got

875
00:34:28,860 --> 00:34:27,010
started and of course the early

876
00:34:31,380 --> 00:34:28,870
experiments with Uri Geller and Pat

877
00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:31,390
price and then later Ingo Swann yeah you

878
00:34:35,010 --> 00:34:32,860
didn't mention this but this then

879
00:34:37,020 --> 00:34:35,020
gradually kind of morphed into the whole

880
00:34:38,970 --> 00:34:37,030
remote viewing project that then

881
00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:38,980
actually raised quite a lot of eyebrows

882
00:34:44,250 --> 00:34:40,870
especially in the intelligence community

883
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:44,260
in the in the military and yeah and

884
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:46,210
these guys seem to swirl around this

885
00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:48,399
whole sort of cauldron of creative

886
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:50,740
thinking and ideas one of the one of the

887
00:34:56,580 --> 00:34:54,370
one of the real I think leading figures

888
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:56,590
in this whole physics group was of

889
00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:00,880
course Jack Sarfati who is quite a

890
00:35:06,510 --> 00:35:02,860
character he's still out there

891
00:35:08,070 --> 00:35:06,520
I for a scientist who supposedly is

892
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:08,080
doing you know some pretty heavy-duty

893
00:35:12,450 --> 00:35:10,090
physics works I don't know how the heck

894
00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:12,460
he has time to fire off several hundred

895
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:15,190
emails every day I've unfortunately been

896
00:35:20,610 --> 00:35:17,920
the recipient of some rather strident

897
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:20,620
emails from Jack we'd like to get Jack

898
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:23,010
on the show at some point he has

899
00:35:27,090 --> 00:35:24,970
surprisingly agreed to come on the show

900
00:35:29,310 --> 00:35:27,100
so he can we can dig into some of his

901
00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:29,320
war stories but I mean these guys are

902
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:30,910
really I mean they were walking the walk

903
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:32,860
and talking the talk I mean several of

904
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:34,210
them actually had jobs as like

905
00:35:39,150 --> 00:35:36,880
dishwashers and just you know they did

906
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:39,160
anything they could to get by why don't

907
00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:41,530
you describe some of these figures of

908
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:44,470
for us Nick Herbert of course Sarfati

909
00:35:47,310 --> 00:35:45,820
don't you give us a little thumbnail

910
00:35:48,810 --> 00:35:47,320
sketch on these guys because some of the

911
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:48,820
photographs I've seen I mean they're

912
00:35:54,690 --> 00:35:50,530
they look like something out of Star

913
00:35:56,340 --> 00:35:54,700
Wars so each of the people I wrote about

914
00:35:58,740 --> 00:35:56,350
I guess almost all of them are still

915
00:36:00,480 --> 00:35:58,750
alive you mentioned Jack's Asadi Nick

916
00:36:02,130 --> 00:36:00,490
Herbert so the whole the whole group in

917
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:02,140
fact I think they're flourishing and

918
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:04,210
they were extremely generous with their

919
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:05,710
time for me and I was working on this

920
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:06,640
book so I

921
00:36:10,050 --> 00:36:07,930
I know them you know really pretty well

922
00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:10,060
did you get a chance to like hang out

923
00:36:14,730 --> 00:36:12,430
with em where is it mostly email and

924
00:36:16,020 --> 00:36:14,740
telephone I love it I mean so I had a I

925
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:16,030
spent the better part of you know a

926
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:18,400
really fun day in San Cisco with with

927
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:20,050
the jax-ur Friday and Fred Alan wolf

928
00:36:24,090 --> 00:36:21,970
well working on the book you John

929
00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:24,100
clauser yeah had me over his house for a

930
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:26,140
really very lovely whole long day and

931
00:36:30,060 --> 00:36:28,450
and you know follow-up interviews often

932
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:30,070
by telephone and email and all the rest

933
00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:31,690
so these folks have really been very

934
00:36:35,580 --> 00:36:33,550
kind and other physicists I write about

935
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:35,590
as well logic Zurich at Los Alamos

936
00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:37,510
laboratory and others who are not into

937
00:36:40,980 --> 00:36:39,160
the kind of counterculture Simo to play

938
00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:40,990
roles in the book and they also were you

939
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:42,760
know just extremely generous so we have

940
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:45,970
David Kaiser and the book is called how

941
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,910
the hippie saved physics they've

942
00:36:51,870 --> 00:36:50,320
certainly did a lot of unusual things

943
00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:51,880
will learn more about them Chris

944
00:37:02,850 --> 00:36:54,190
O'Brien's the co-host I'm gene Steinberg

945
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[Music]

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providing the world with hard-hitting

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1039
00:41:19,570 --> 00:41:16,300
[Music]

1040
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:19,580
this is heroes have I told you do the

1041
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:22,370
list in the para cast because he will

1042
00:41:32,350 --> 00:41:29,770
Chrissa Brian's the co-host I'm Jean

1043
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:32,360
Steinberg on the para cast David Kiser

1044
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:36,110
who's a professor at MIT and is talking

1045
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:38,810
about a group of people who hung out

1046
00:41:44,830 --> 00:41:42,050
together in San Francisco the hippies

1047
00:41:48,490 --> 00:41:44,840
how the hippies saved physics now the

1048
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:48,500
title saved physics is it because of the

1049
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:51,050
cutting-edge research they discussed how

1050
00:41:56,110 --> 00:41:54,410
did they save physics I mean I intended

1051
00:41:58,500 --> 00:41:56,120
the title to be actually kind of playful

1052
00:42:00,970 --> 00:41:58,510
a bit ironic kind of tongue-in-cheek

1053
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:00,980
which is I don't think any small group

1054
00:42:04,510 --> 00:42:02,690
of P of individuals you know safe the

1055
00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:04,520
entire discipline oh yes it's not to be

1056
00:42:09,790 --> 00:42:07,460
playful nonetheless I mean this group on

1057
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:09,800
the margins and really as you said down

1058
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:11,330
and out some of them living

1059
00:42:15,580 --> 00:42:13,010
hand-to-mouth incredibly passionate

1060
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:15,590
about their work and they really did you

1061
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:16,850
know stir some pretty amazing

1062
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:18,890
developments all the more amazing given

1063
00:42:22,570 --> 00:42:20,570
their kind of you know professional

1064
00:42:24,010 --> 00:42:22,580
platform at the time and so I don't

1065
00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:24,020
think it saves all of physics but they

1066
00:42:28,090 --> 00:42:25,820
did a bunch of stuff that is that has

1067
00:42:29,260 --> 00:42:28,100
had laughing value to this day and when

1068
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:29,270
I started piecing those things together

1069
00:42:33,130 --> 00:42:32,000
so there's really a book here and so we

1070
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:33,140
were starting to talk before you know

1071
00:42:37,180 --> 00:42:34,910
who are these characters people like

1072
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:37,190
Nick Herbert and JAXA Fadi and Fred Alan

1073
00:42:41,290 --> 00:42:39,110
wolf might be known names known to some

1074
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:41,300
of your listeners Elizabeth Rauscher was

1075
00:42:47,410 --> 00:42:43,850
at the time a graduate student a young

1076
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:47,420
mom raising her son was just able to go

1077
00:42:50,170 --> 00:42:49,310
back to finish a PhD when her child was

1078
00:42:51,790 --> 00:42:50,180
old enough you know to go to

1079
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:51,800
kindergarten really you know not easy

1080
00:42:57,010 --> 00:42:54,110
times and she was subject to really

1081
00:42:59,130 --> 00:42:57,020
quite horrible gender discrimination of

1082
00:43:02,200 --> 00:42:59,140
very very few women physics students

1083
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:02,210
even as recently in the 1970s and so she

1084
00:43:07,810 --> 00:43:04,610
had she didn't have an easy time saw

1085
00:43:10,690 --> 00:43:07,820
Paul sir rag who's a amazing fellow he

1086
00:43:12,070 --> 00:43:10,700
was basically a I'm not a conic a member

1087
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:12,080
he finished his undergraduate degree or

1088
00:43:15,130 --> 00:43:13,490
not he did not go on for graduate

1089
00:43:16,750 --> 00:43:15,140
training hardly but he dropped out of

1090
00:43:18,430 --> 00:43:16,760
Berkeley to go pursue theater he was

1091
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:18,440
cast in the original Broadway production

1092
00:43:23,170 --> 00:43:20,570
of hair if you can think back to that

1093
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:23,180
couldn't we sprout up the cash to meet

1094
00:43:26,350 --> 00:43:25,070
the Actors Equity fee went back to

1095
00:43:28,510 --> 00:43:26,360
Berkeley to study more physics I mean

1096
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:28,520
these are amazing people and pretty cool

1097
00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:29,680
characters

1098
00:43:33,690 --> 00:43:31,569
Sault all through basically self-study

1099
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:33,700
managed had published several physics

1100
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:35,410
articles and again the most prestigious

1101
00:43:40,260 --> 00:43:37,450
peer-reviewed journals in the land so

1102
00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:40,270
these really people combined an amazing

1103
00:43:43,799 --> 00:43:41,740
passion for quantum theory and

1104
00:43:45,299 --> 00:43:43,809
aesthetics kind of weirdnesses with an

1105
00:43:48,059 --> 00:43:45,309
interest in all the kind of buzzing

1106
00:43:50,130 --> 00:43:48,069
blooming the cult New Age stuff that was

1107
00:43:52,799 --> 00:43:50,140
getting especially a lot of play in San

1108
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:52,809
Francisco in the Bay Area in in the 70s

1109
00:43:56,430 --> 00:43:54,970
and they were playful they were they

1110
00:43:58,829 --> 00:43:56,440
didn't take themselves too seriously at

1111
00:44:01,260 --> 00:43:58,839
times and he was pretty pretty amazing

1112
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:01,270
punchy well to have have seminars at

1113
00:44:06,299 --> 00:44:03,910
Esalen naked in hot tubs you know that's

1114
00:44:08,430 --> 00:44:06,309
just kind of that's kind of wacky you

1115
00:44:10,530 --> 00:44:08,440
know just listening to me say that but

1116
00:44:12,569 --> 00:44:10,540
one of the things that you really you

1117
00:44:14,609 --> 00:44:12,579
spend a a bit of time in the book

1118
00:44:16,799 --> 00:44:14,619
talking about Nick Herbert and Jax are

1119
00:44:19,290 --> 00:44:16,809
fadis attempted at faster-than-light

1120
00:44:21,329 --> 00:44:19,300
communication and this was fascinating

1121
00:44:23,250 --> 00:44:21,339
to me because basically what they were

1122
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:23,260
trying to do is take the principles that

1123
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:24,910
Bell laid out in his billion in his

1124
00:44:31,220 --> 00:44:27,130
theorem and take nonlocality and

1125
00:44:33,809 --> 00:44:31,230
actually utilize it as an approach to

1126
00:44:35,370 --> 00:44:33,819
faster-than-light communication let's

1127
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:35,380
talk about that a little bit because it

1128
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:37,930
was an incredibly difficult process that

1129
00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:38,890
they went through and I know Nick

1130
00:44:43,710 --> 00:44:41,440
Herbert spent years attempting to to

1131
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:43,720
prove his hypothesis and and why don't

1132
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:45,460
you give us a kind of a thumbnail on

1133
00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:47,410
that and maybe where you answer the

1134
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:49,599
question David consider the phrase it

1135
00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:52,000
came out of Star Trek sub space

1136
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:54,089
communications is that what it was about

1137
00:44:58,380 --> 00:44:56,290
I'm not sure what that would be action

1138
00:45:00,660 --> 00:44:58,390
less sure that was the concept in the

1139
00:45:03,089 --> 00:45:00,670
Star Trek universe in the stripe

1140
00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:03,099
universe in the 1960s how did they

1141
00:45:06,809 --> 00:45:04,750
communicate with people light-years away

1142
00:45:09,150 --> 00:45:06,819
well of course they didn't have to

1143
00:45:11,309 --> 00:45:09,160
explain it it was all subspace they see

1144
00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:11,319
well maybe that was the inspiration I

1145
00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:13,150
don't know but it certainly is it's

1146
00:45:17,099 --> 00:45:14,710
equally strange I mean what these folks

1147
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:17,109
were up to what we're after and so I

1148
00:45:21,299 --> 00:45:19,119
mean just a just a pause because I can

1149
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:21,309
say faster-than-light communication what

1150
00:45:24,359 --> 00:45:23,650
that really would imply if one could

1151
00:45:26,339 --> 00:45:24,369
make it work

1152
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:26,349
would be receiving a message before it

1153
00:45:30,030 --> 00:45:27,970
was sent we're talking about all the

1154
00:45:31,650 --> 00:45:30,040
causal paradoxes all the kind of

1155
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,660
troubles with relativity that that would

1156
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:34,000
imply and so what what certain members

1157
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:35,920
of this Berkeley group especially at the

1158
00:45:39,359 --> 00:45:37,359
time Jack Sarfatti

1159
00:45:42,940 --> 00:45:39,369
Nick Herbert they were really intrigued

1160
00:45:44,980 --> 00:45:42,950
by the possibility which is to say now

1161
00:45:47,140 --> 00:45:44,990
theorem this incredibly beautiful

1162
00:45:49,089 --> 00:45:47,150
results from quantum theory not getting

1163
00:45:50,829 --> 00:45:49,099
much attention yet except from folks

1164
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:50,839
like like the ones I write about it

1165
00:45:57,460 --> 00:45:52,609
seems watertight in fact the group

1166
00:45:59,049 --> 00:45:57,470
member jonclark2000 tangle in seemed to

1167
00:46:01,450 --> 00:45:59,059
be a real thing it wasn't just you know

1168
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:01,460
flights of fancy and it implied this

1169
00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:03,650
this instantaneous faster-than-light

1170
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:05,569
connection between two particles and

1171
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:07,609
that seems to butt up against that is

1172
00:46:10,990 --> 00:46:09,650
really to sit poorly with the other

1173
00:46:12,460 --> 00:46:11,000
great pillar of modern physics

1174
00:46:14,410 --> 00:46:12,470
Einstein's relativity which seems to put

1175
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:14,420
an absolute speed limit an upper limit

1176
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:16,730
on how fast anything like information or

1177
00:46:20,140 --> 00:46:19,040
force anything else could travel so here

1178
00:46:21,849 --> 00:46:20,150
you have the great here the great

1179
00:46:23,890 --> 00:46:21,859
Smackdown at modern physics right is

1180
00:46:25,870 --> 00:46:23,900
quantum theory going to be incompatible

1181
00:46:28,750 --> 00:46:25,880
with relativity or will there be some

1182
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:28,760
some unusual and kind of hidden union

1183
00:46:32,829 --> 00:46:30,290
between them and that's the kind of

1184
00:46:35,319 --> 00:46:32,839
thing that these folks are after people

1185
00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:35,329
like Nick Herbert and sanjak Sarfati and

1186
00:46:39,940 --> 00:46:37,460
so they came up with increasingly really

1187
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:39,950
quite ingenious designs so thought

1188
00:46:44,740 --> 00:46:42,049
experiments for devices that maybe

1189
00:46:46,780 --> 00:46:44,750
really could use quantum theory to today

1190
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:46,790
who violate relativity to send messages

1191
00:46:49,660 --> 00:46:48,170
before they could be which I should say

1192
00:46:51,910 --> 00:46:49,670
to receive messages before they were

1193
00:46:53,230 --> 00:46:51,920
sent to go faster than light and so you

1194
00:46:54,940 --> 00:46:53,240
laid in the book I have a launch after

1195
00:46:56,970 --> 00:46:54,950
the kind of cat-and-mouse game as I

1196
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:56,980
think of it you know the the two of them

1197
00:47:01,900 --> 00:46:59,599
would would come up with what hammer had

1198
00:47:04,420 --> 00:47:01,910
a cool idea they would often get you

1199
00:47:06,549 --> 00:47:04,430
hashed out first in these informal crude

1200
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:06,559
discussions by the phone has croup and

1201
00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:08,510
they'd put them down on paper Jack even

1202
00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:10,910
filed patent disclosure forms at one

1203
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:12,049
point thought it can maybe patent a

1204
00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:14,079
device Nick Herbert wrote up his own

1205
00:47:19,299 --> 00:47:16,220
preprints and set them on their way and

1206
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,309
then a small number of other physicists

1207
00:47:22,870 --> 00:47:21,200
all around the world some of them in the

1208
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:22,880
United States some dotted throughout

1209
00:47:26,799 --> 00:47:24,890
Western Europe would get their hands on

1210
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:26,809
these kind of underground preprints or

1211
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:28,730
all kinds of interesting way they were

1212
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:31,250
connected and they would think hard

1213
00:47:34,930 --> 00:47:33,290
about them and then some of them would

1214
00:47:36,789 --> 00:47:34,940
find a loopholes they'd find this go to

1215
00:47:39,579 --> 00:47:36,799
no-go theorem why that actually would

1216
00:47:41,470 --> 00:47:39,589
not be able to operate as has claimed

1217
00:47:43,660 --> 00:47:41,480
and this went on for as you said for

1218
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:43,670
years in fact for you know increasingly

1219
00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:46,910
ingenious patterns are planned and then

1220
00:47:50,109 --> 00:47:48,500
increasingly subtle reasons why they

1221
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:50,119
actually would fall and with each of

1222
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:52,130
those these were kind of revelations

1223
00:47:55,839 --> 00:47:54,530
that had not been known before about the

1224
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:55,849
deep structure of quantum theory

1225
00:47:58,540 --> 00:47:56,690
physicists were

1226
00:48:00,790 --> 00:47:58,550
learning about things they didn't even

1227
00:48:03,490 --> 00:48:00,800
know about from in the in the effort to

1228
00:48:06,460 --> 00:48:03,500
kind of debunk or or poke holes in these

1229
00:48:08,140 --> 00:48:06,470
in these cool designs and so and and

1230
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:08,150
from that's partly where the the saving

1231
00:48:14,050 --> 00:48:10,160
physics and the title comes from out of

1232
00:48:16,690 --> 00:48:14,060
that really quite playful spirited back

1233
00:48:19,390 --> 00:48:16,700
and forth came some absolutely critical

1234
00:48:20,770 --> 00:48:19,400
insights into physics that better assets

1235
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:20,780
that have paid one of our textbooks

1236
00:48:25,059 --> 00:48:22,880
today they go by names like the no

1237
00:48:27,450 --> 00:48:25,069
cloning theorem the no signaling theorem

1238
00:48:29,950 --> 00:48:27,460
quantum uh that's on amplifiers neither

1239
00:48:31,390 --> 00:48:29,960
foundational results that are now at the

1240
00:48:33,579 --> 00:48:31,400
bedrock of a multi-billion dollar

1241
00:48:35,859 --> 00:48:33,589
industry like quantum encryption and

1242
00:48:38,980 --> 00:48:35,869
they they were discovered by the kind of

1243
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:38,990
constant playful smart prodding and hard

1244
00:48:44,829 --> 00:48:42,650
thinking by people like Jack Sarfati and

1245
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:44,839
Nick Herbert and then the handful of

1246
00:48:48,579 --> 00:48:46,790
they're kind of interlocked it is people

1247
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:48,589
like whoa jaques Erick and Bill looters

1248
00:48:53,490 --> 00:48:51,290
and Dennis Deeks and others Giancarlo

1249
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:53,500
Girardi so there was this kind of really

1250
00:48:59,680 --> 00:48:56,210
attenuated communication pattern between

1251
00:49:01,359 --> 00:48:59,690
the kind of really hit playful berkeley

1252
00:49:04,210 --> 00:49:01,369
group and a few other kind of

1253
00:49:05,770 --> 00:49:04,220
increasingly mainstream business to work

1254
00:49:08,589 --> 00:49:05,780
or paying attention cutting to the chase

1255
00:49:10,890 --> 00:49:08,599
david is it possible to have what we

1256
00:49:12,910 --> 00:49:10,900
call subspace communications or

1257
00:49:15,550 --> 00:49:12,920
communications at faster-than-light

1258
00:49:17,650 --> 00:49:15,560
speeds so someone who's exploring

1259
00:49:19,690 --> 00:49:17,660
another star system can call home and

1260
00:49:23,170 --> 00:49:19,700
they get an answer right away not fifty

1261
00:49:25,329 --> 00:49:23,180
ya know when 80 calls up so to the best

1262
00:49:27,970 --> 00:49:25,339
of my knowledge the answer is no I think

1263
00:49:29,530 --> 00:49:27,980
most physicists would say no on the

1264
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:29,540
other hand I'm not going to endorse

1265
00:49:34,210 --> 00:49:31,910
these plans but serious people you know

1266
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:34,220
have had given serious thought to they

1267
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:36,710
continue to to that question and so it

1268
00:49:40,690 --> 00:49:38,510
could it wouldn't surprise me if the

1269
00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:40,700
effort to get even even more wacky cool

1270
00:49:46,809 --> 00:49:44,780
ideas today would a not work but BP sort

1271
00:49:50,650 --> 00:49:46,819
of clarifying in the quest much like it

1272
00:49:52,359 --> 00:49:50,660
happened before and so quantum theory if

1273
00:49:54,220 --> 00:49:52,369
as we now understand it seems not to

1274
00:49:55,839 --> 00:49:54,230
allow these things to happen is quantum

1275
00:49:57,819 --> 00:49:55,849
theory the last word you know there are

1276
00:49:59,890 --> 00:49:57,829
all kinds of legitimate reasons to ask

1277
00:50:01,900 --> 00:49:59,900
about extensions beyond quanta theory or

1278
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:01,910
for that matter relativity so given what

1279
00:50:05,230 --> 00:50:03,530
we know now I think the answer really is

1280
00:50:07,210 --> 00:50:05,240
no we can't do it do I think that'll

1281
00:50:09,339 --> 00:50:07,220
never ever ever be possible you know

1282
00:50:11,469 --> 00:50:09,349
that that's a much harder bet

1283
00:50:14,469 --> 00:50:11,479
of course I have to ask then about the

1284
00:50:16,689 --> 00:50:14,479
logical connection warp drive

1285
00:50:20,019 --> 00:50:16,699
hyper drive our as they used to say

1286
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:20,029
engage so can we engage warp drive

1287
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:22,160
they're talking about that aren't they

1288
00:50:25,839 --> 00:50:24,170
some of the folks are today so as for

1289
00:50:29,769 --> 00:50:25,849
example people like Jackson are Fadi

1290
00:50:32,019 --> 00:50:29,779
have been working very hard on sort of

1291
00:50:34,029 --> 00:50:32,029
we might call them exotic theories of

1292
00:50:35,709 --> 00:50:34,039
space-time or worrying about work or

1293
00:50:38,049 --> 00:50:35,719
even design Stein's general relativity

1294
00:50:41,170 --> 00:50:38,059
allow for exotic states and so on so

1295
00:50:43,059 --> 00:50:41,180
again it's not that I at least haven't

1296
00:50:43,989 --> 00:50:43,069
seen a winning example yet but that

1297
00:50:45,609 --> 00:50:43,999
doesn't mean that they shouldn't be

1298
00:50:47,349 --> 00:50:45,619
working on it and that's that's I think

1299
00:50:48,999 --> 00:50:47,359
the larger point of the book is that we

1300
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:49,009
need these people we need all kinds of

1301
00:50:53,019 --> 00:50:51,170
people to be pushing and pushing on the

1302
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:53,029
boundaries what seems what seem to just

1303
00:50:56,949 --> 00:50:55,249
may be barely possible because just in

1304
00:50:58,420 --> 00:50:56,959
clarifying even if it's impossible

1305
00:51:00,099 --> 00:50:58,430
you know we're gonna learn something and

1306
00:51:01,930 --> 00:51:00,109
off we'll learn pretty surprising and

1307
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:01,940
amazing things but isn't that part of

1308
00:51:07,089 --> 00:51:04,400
doing scientific research that today

1309
00:51:09,039 --> 00:51:07,099
something is impossible but tomorrow we

1310
00:51:09,549 --> 00:51:09,049
find a way to do it that's the way it's

1311
00:51:11,259 --> 00:51:09,559
always been

1312
00:51:13,180 --> 00:51:11,269
hasn't it that's exactly right like one

1313
00:51:14,769 --> 00:51:13,190
of the favored examples that these folks

1314
00:51:18,130 --> 00:51:14,779
used to trot out even back in the day

1315
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:18,140
was at one point John Wheeler a very

1316
00:51:22,930 --> 00:51:21,049
very prominent eminent physicists who

1317
00:51:25,569 --> 00:51:22,940
was in very frequent contact with the

1318
00:51:28,329 --> 00:51:25,579
Berkeley group and one point he's called

1319
00:51:29,289 --> 00:51:28,339
one of their ideas moonshine and they

1320
00:51:31,059 --> 00:51:29,299
thought that was great cuz that's

1321
00:51:33,189 --> 00:51:31,069
exactly the word he was used before

1322
00:51:34,539 --> 00:51:33,199
World War two to explain to it to

1323
00:51:36,969 --> 00:51:34,549
dismiss the notion of what would become

1324
00:51:38,769 --> 00:51:36,979
an atomic bomb you know Nobel laureate

1325
00:51:40,930 --> 00:51:38,779
nuclear physicist it said that you know

1326
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:40,940
uranium fission is just moonshine and

1327
00:51:44,799 --> 00:51:43,249
today what we'll drink more moonshine or

1328
00:51:46,749 --> 00:51:44,809
the kool-aid or whatever it is with

1329
00:51:48,939 --> 00:51:46,759
David Kaiser I'm gene Steinberg the

1330
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:48,949
co-host is Chris O'Brien you're in the

1331
00:51:57,609 --> 00:51:55,079
[Music]

1332
00:51:59,500 --> 00:51:57,619
hi this is Ted Anderson if you'd like to

1333
00:52:01,599 --> 00:51:59,510
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1334
00:52:03,579 --> 00:52:01,609
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1335
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:03,589
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1336
00:52:07,779 --> 00:52:05,930
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1337
00:52:09,069 --> 00:52:07,789
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1338
00:52:11,140 --> 00:52:09,079
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1339
00:52:12,579 --> 00:52:11,150
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1340
00:52:15,099 --> 00:52:12,589
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1341
00:52:16,779 --> 00:52:15,109
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1342
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1343
00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:18,770
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1344
00:52:22,660 --> 00:52:20,270
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1345
00:52:24,490 --> 00:52:22,670
live.com again that's juicy and live.com

1346
00:52:26,380 --> 00:52:24,500
we the people grow cotton wheat fabric

1347
00:52:27,849 --> 00:52:26,390
engraving can bed strips and fibers to

1348
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:27,859
protect from counterfeit than carding to

1349
00:52:29,859 --> 00:52:29,450
a private bank having a led back at

1350
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:29,869
interest

1351
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:31,490
forcing taxes to service debt this

1352
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:33,170
capitalism was jefferson correct when

1353
00:52:35,980 --> 00:52:34,490
stating a central bank issuing the

1354
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:35,990
public currency is a greater menace to

1355
00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:37,010
the liberties of the people than a

1356
00:52:39,549 --> 00:52:38,270
standing army today understand i'm

1357
00:52:41,230 --> 00:52:39,559
placing a free silver dollar in a book

1358
00:52:42,789 --> 00:52:41,240
that explains our monetary system call

1359
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:42,799
for your copy of eight hundred six eight

1360
00:52:47,260 --> 00:52:44,450
six two two thirty-seven it's time to

1361
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:47,270
understand the system call 866 to 237

1362
00:52:56,410 --> 00:52:48,890
that's eight hundred six eight six two

1363
00:52:59,019 --> 00:52:56,420
two three seven welcome back to the pair

1364
00:53:05,890 --> 00:52:59,029
cast the gold standard of paranormal

1365
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:07,769
[Music]

1366
00:53:13,660 --> 00:53:10,910
we continue amazingly even though it

1367
00:53:15,669 --> 00:53:13,670
seems like only 30-40 minutes have

1368
00:53:18,339 --> 00:53:15,679
passed we are in the second hour of the

1369
00:53:21,339 --> 00:53:18,349
para cast with David Kaiser we're taking

1370
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:21,349
a quantum leap through time and space

1371
00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:23,599
the co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm Jean

1372
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:25,609
Steinberg you're in the para cast so

1373
00:53:30,219 --> 00:53:27,890
looking here at what these hippies

1374
00:53:30,819 --> 00:53:30,229
discovered what were you doing by the

1375
00:53:33,130 --> 00:53:30,829
way

1376
00:53:37,089 --> 00:53:33,140
parenthetically what was David Kiser

1377
00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:37,099
doing in the 1970s mostly watching

1378
00:53:41,799 --> 00:53:38,689
Saturday morning cartoons that was

1379
00:53:43,989 --> 00:53:41,809
pretty young kid so you know I joke and

1380
00:53:45,759 --> 00:53:43,999
in the book I guess and acknowledge the

1381
00:53:47,439 --> 00:53:45,769
fact my memories of the seventies are

1382
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:47,449
hazy but nah cuz they were clouded you

1383
00:53:52,689 --> 00:53:48,890
know by psyckadelis because I was you

1384
00:53:54,339 --> 00:53:52,699
know like a toddler so I was slowly you

1385
00:53:55,839 --> 00:53:54,349
know trying to learn about the world but

1386
00:53:57,519 --> 00:53:55,849
in a different way than the folks I

1387
00:53:59,410 --> 00:53:57,529
write about so I guess if you remember

1388
00:54:01,989 --> 00:53:59,420
the 70s you're you're either too young

1389
00:54:05,709 --> 00:54:01,999
or had spent too much time in the

1390
00:54:08,289 --> 00:54:05,719
sixties an interesting little side note

1391
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:08,299
here is Jack Sarfati is gonna be at the

1392
00:54:12,939 --> 00:54:11,119
DARPA NASA stardrive symposium in

1393
00:54:15,249 --> 00:54:12,949
October and I believe he's going to be

1394
00:54:17,439 --> 00:54:15,259
presenting some sort of paper addressing

1395
00:54:20,859 --> 00:54:17,449
his concept of negative energy powered

1396
00:54:23,229 --> 00:54:20,869
starships so he's still mr. outrageous

1397
00:54:25,689 --> 00:54:23,239
he's still out there pushing the

1398
00:54:29,890 --> 00:54:25,699
envelope so kind of keep your keep your

1399
00:54:31,630 --> 00:54:29,900
eyes open listeners for word on his

1400
00:54:33,669 --> 00:54:31,640
paper and if we can get him on the show

1401
00:54:35,769 --> 00:54:33,679
he's agreed to get on will maybe get

1402
00:54:38,049 --> 00:54:35,779
into that a little bit the whole concept

1403
00:54:39,999 --> 00:54:38,059
of negative energy to me I mean you know

1404
00:54:41,769 --> 00:54:40,009
you yes your average new agent would

1405
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:41,779
cringe thinking oh my god negative

1406
00:54:47,469 --> 00:54:45,529
energy powering the starship yeah so by

1407
00:54:50,890 --> 00:54:47,479
the way is that antimatter negative any

1408
00:54:55,209 --> 00:54:50,900
good no it's not it's it's different we

1409
00:55:00,099 --> 00:54:55,219
can't we can't build dilithium crystals

1410
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:00,109
I'm so sad metamaterials and you says

1411
00:55:04,179 --> 00:55:01,910
I'm here with Andrew Paul Freeman who is

1412
00:55:06,519 --> 00:55:04,189
a software engineer for many years at

1413
00:55:08,169 --> 00:55:06,529
Cisco he was one of those rare

1414
00:55:10,660 --> 00:55:08,179
individuals that was actually accepted

1415
00:55:14,189 --> 00:55:10,670
into Oxford University when he was 16 so

1416
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,199
he's he's a bright guy and he's busy

1417
00:55:17,470 --> 00:55:16,400
writing down up a couple of questions

1418
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:17,480
and in comments

1419
00:55:22,599 --> 00:55:20,450
as we as he's listening to us do the

1420
00:55:23,890 --> 00:55:22,609
show here we should bring him on for a

1421
00:55:25,870 --> 00:55:23,900
few minutes I'll see if I could twist

1422
00:55:28,420 --> 00:55:25,880
his arm and get him on here but like

1423
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:28,430
he's been working for 12 over 12 years

1424
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:31,520
with on the Woodward effect are are you

1425
00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:33,410
familiar with that at all David

1426
00:55:40,270 --> 00:55:36,609
the maquis and general relativity and

1427
00:55:43,180 --> 00:55:40,280
Mayer melissa's see was it's a BB our

1428
00:55:44,620 --> 00:55:43,190
number one choice so I'm familiar with

1429
00:55:46,660 --> 00:55:44,630
some of the work on machs principle and

1430
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:46,670
relativity and some efforts into uh to

1431
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:49,760
explain the origin of inertia well I'm

1432
00:55:53,530 --> 00:55:51,680
not familiar with with with the things

1433
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:53,540
you mentioned just now though yeah so

1434
00:55:57,550 --> 00:55:55,490
what's what words first name and yeah

1435
00:56:00,070 --> 00:55:57,560
James T Woodward at Cal State Fullerton

1436
00:56:01,980 --> 00:56:00,080
and who's been working with him really

1437
00:56:04,990 --> 00:56:01,990
closely for quite a number of years on

1438
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:05,000
it's called frictionless propulsion I

1439
00:56:11,050 --> 00:56:07,730
think propellant 'list propulsion so

1440
00:56:12,970 --> 00:56:11,060
maybe Woodward and Sarfati might compare

1441
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:12,980
notes at one time but let's get back to

1442
00:56:17,859 --> 00:56:15,410
to our physics group and and we were

1443
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:17,869
talking about Nick Herbert's multi-year

1444
00:56:22,180 --> 00:56:20,210
attempt and with Sarfaraz help in the

1445
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:22,190
physics groups helped to come up with a

1446
00:56:26,349 --> 00:56:24,170
design for faster-than-light

1447
00:56:28,030 --> 00:56:26,359
communication which ultimately was shot

1448
00:56:30,580 --> 00:56:28,040
down even though he did get a paper

1449
00:56:33,130 --> 00:56:30,590
published so if I remember correctly it

1450
00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:33,140
was as you alluded to it was sort of

1451
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:36,430
proven to not be a workable a workable

1452
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:38,690
hypothesis what what was some of the

1453
00:56:42,609 --> 00:56:40,490
other early experiments that these guys

1454
00:56:45,070 --> 00:56:42,619
were doing before we had of course the

1455
00:56:46,599 --> 00:56:45,080
famous success of the Dow physics and

1456
00:56:48,220 --> 00:56:46,609
the dancing Willy masters from two of

1457
00:56:50,980 --> 00:56:48,230
the members of the group I want you to

1458
00:56:52,810 --> 00:56:50,990
kind of give us another sense of what

1459
00:56:56,380 --> 00:56:52,820
some of the other areas that they were

1460
00:56:58,359 --> 00:56:56,390
working in you know one device that you

1461
00:57:00,220 --> 00:56:58,369
really did build Nick Herbert built with

1462
00:57:03,460 --> 00:57:00,230
another friend and colleague they call

1463
00:57:05,410 --> 00:57:03,470
the metaphase typewriter it was just a

1464
00:57:07,540 --> 00:57:05,420
modern example of the kind of

1465
00:57:10,450 --> 00:57:07,550
playfulness built on some real earnest

1466
00:57:13,359 --> 00:57:10,460
serious thinking and it's you know look

1467
00:57:14,770 --> 00:57:13,369
at the light to learn about so part of

1468
00:57:16,180 --> 00:57:14,780
what really intrigued these members of

1469
00:57:17,859 --> 00:57:16,190
group was this question of consciousness

1470
00:57:20,260 --> 00:57:17,869
that's a lot of what they were after

1471
00:57:22,090 --> 00:57:20,270
and one question particular was whether

1472
00:57:24,310 --> 00:57:22,100
consciousness could have an effect on

1473
00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:24,320
sort of steering quantum events that's

1474
00:57:29,230 --> 00:57:26,720
to say and that goes back in some sense

1475
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:29,240
at least inspired by some ideas the

1476
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:31,010
speculations by Nobel laureate

1477
00:57:35,710 --> 00:57:33,680
like Eugene Wigner which again and and

1478
00:57:37,210 --> 00:57:35,720
john mueller which has not really been

1479
00:57:39,130 --> 00:57:37,220
getting much play in the mainstream

1480
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:39,140
physics world but these folks really

1481
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:40,400
wrestled with them they picked up on

1482
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:42,710
them and the idea was could could human

1483
00:57:46,450 --> 00:57:43,850
consciousness or in maybe any

1484
00:57:48,030 --> 00:57:46,460
consciousness kind of steer couldn't

1485
00:57:50,410 --> 00:57:48,040
alter the underlying probability

1486
00:57:53,770 --> 00:57:50,420
distribution for seemingly random

1487
00:57:55,660 --> 00:57:53,780
quantum events and victor had ideas to

1488
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:55,670
suggest that maybe consciousness is what

1489
00:57:59,650 --> 00:57:58,010
he would have said collapses the quantum

1490
00:58:01,900 --> 00:57:59,660
wave function or it plays some crucial

1491
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:01,910
role in quantum measurement and that was

1492
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:04,010
you know it's it's a legitimate thing to

1493
00:58:08,650 --> 00:58:06,110
be asking about and these folks were

1494
00:58:10,450 --> 00:58:08,660
curious about that and so nick realized

1495
00:58:12,550 --> 00:58:10,460
if it's really consciousness and not say

1496
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:12,560
brain chemistry in a physical fleshy

1497
00:58:15,940 --> 00:58:14,570
brain then it needn't be restricted to

1498
00:58:17,410 --> 00:58:15,950
the person sitting next to you what if

1499
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:17,420
it could be spirits you know from the

1500
00:58:23,380 --> 00:58:19,610
other side and so on so basically these

1501
00:58:26,380 --> 00:58:23,390
guys wired up a pretty cool device in

1502
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:26,390
the 1970s for a kind of 1870s new

1503
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:28,310
phenomenon to worry about spiritualism

1504
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,250
or getting using a kind of spirit medium

1505
00:58:35,380 --> 00:58:33,440
to hear from from spirits up from beyond

1506
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:35,390
so they did this and they did it many

1507
00:58:39,790 --> 00:58:37,130
times and among my favorite examples

1508
00:58:42,190 --> 00:58:39,800
they had a big party on the centennial

1509
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:42,200
of the birth of Harry Houdini famous

1510
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:43,010
magician

1511
00:58:47,170 --> 00:58:44,810
and they wanted to see if Houdini's

1512
00:58:48,930 --> 00:58:47,180
spirit could come how the consciousness

1513
00:58:51,250 --> 00:58:48,940
could could steer the kind of

1514
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:51,260
probabilities for quantum events in

1515
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:53,570
particular if it's say like the the

1516
00:58:58,900 --> 00:58:56,570
radioactive decay of a valium sample so

1517
00:59:01,480 --> 00:58:58,910
the each decay should be a random event

1518
00:59:03,910 --> 00:59:01,490
but with an average half-life and so the

1519
00:59:06,250 --> 00:59:03,920
question was could a consciousness like

1520
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:06,260
say the spirit of Harry Houdini start

1521
00:59:10,690 --> 00:59:07,970
you know sort of speeding up or slowing

1522
00:59:13,300 --> 00:59:10,700
down changing from the average

1523
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:13,310
likelihood a given radioactive decay and

1524
00:59:16,930 --> 00:59:14,690
if so could that be used to sort of

1525
00:59:18,820 --> 00:59:16,940
rat-tat-tat out like a Morse code

1526
00:59:21,550 --> 00:59:18,830
message so they hooked this detector

1527
00:59:24,820 --> 00:59:21,560
geiger counter up to a teletype machine

1528
00:59:26,860 --> 00:59:24,830
and they got a paper from the National

1529
00:59:28,780 --> 00:59:26,870
Security Agency on the letter

1530
00:59:30,550 --> 00:59:28,790
frequencies in the English language how

1531
00:59:32,380 --> 00:59:30,560
common is letter e how often does it

1532
00:59:34,030 --> 00:59:32,390
appear with the letter D and so on and

1533
00:59:36,250 --> 00:59:34,040
so they want to do really very carefully

1534
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:36,260
in scientifically and they wondered you

1535
00:59:39,820 --> 00:59:38,090
know could when they hooked up the

1536
00:59:42,130 --> 00:59:39,830
Geiger counter to the teletype but they

1537
00:59:44,050 --> 00:59:42,140
only get random noise just jumbles of

1538
00:59:44,740 --> 00:59:44,060
letters or did the intelligible messages

1539
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:44,750
in there

1540
00:59:47,980 --> 00:59:46,310
and they called that the metaphase type

1541
00:59:51,130 --> 00:59:47,990
interest so that's an example of among

1542
00:59:52,359 --> 00:59:51,140
many the way these folks were as Nick I

1543
00:59:53,859 --> 00:59:52,369
think later called who was at the very

1544
00:59:56,620 --> 00:59:53,869
least a good excuse for a really good

1545
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:56,630
party and and there was a way to

1546
01:00:00,370 --> 00:59:58,640
celebrate Harry Houdini think hard about

1547
01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:00,380
quantum theory in consciousness and has

1548
01:00:04,630 --> 01:00:03,200
you know have a good time so they were

1549
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:04,640
you know that's I think that captures

1550
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:05,930
the spirit of the group it but this was

1551
01:00:09,849 --> 01:00:07,490
not a throwaway and they were worried

1552
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:09,859
about alternative explanations for the

1553
01:00:12,849 --> 01:00:11,090
measurement problem in quantum theory

1554
01:00:15,130 --> 01:00:12,859
which is like you know in their manes a

1555
01:00:17,140 --> 01:00:15,140
huge big deal problem even for for

1556
01:00:19,510 --> 01:00:17,150
mainstream physicists and they wanted to

1557
01:00:21,820 --> 01:00:19,520
sort of show highlights just how weird

1558
01:00:23,980 --> 01:00:21,830
the quantum universe really is within a

1559
01:00:26,580 --> 01:00:23,990
very playful very evocative way well

1560
01:00:29,050 --> 01:00:26,590
what did what a Houdini have to say

1561
01:00:30,940 --> 01:00:29,060
opinions different so it's all Paul

1562
01:00:33,099 --> 01:00:30,950
serac and I mentioned earlier wrote a

1563
01:00:34,810 --> 01:00:33,109
really lovely kind of fictionalized

1564
01:00:36,970 --> 01:00:34,820
account a short story about the

1565
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:36,980
metaphase typewriter it appeared in a

1566
01:00:42,099 --> 01:00:40,010
magazine called spit in the ocean which

1567
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:42,109
was at a time edited by Ken K Z's and

1568
01:00:44,890 --> 01:00:42,890
Merry Pranksters

1569
01:00:46,750 --> 01:00:44,900
is it a special issue edited by Timothy

1570
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:46,760
Leary and so in Sawle paul's

1571
01:00:50,890 --> 01:00:49,490
fictionalized account they see this

1572
01:00:53,230 --> 01:00:50,900
string of letters to the fact that says

1573
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:53,240
basically and in an infinite time as if

1574
01:00:57,370 --> 01:00:55,520
Harry Houdini was too frustrated it was

1575
01:00:59,170 --> 01:00:57,380
this was too slow and advice to get his

1576
01:01:00,790 --> 01:00:59,180
thoughts across it's like when I try to

1577
01:01:02,620 --> 01:01:00,800
text on my cell phone taking an hour and

1578
01:01:05,109 --> 01:01:02,630
a half so I guess they'd be in the story

1579
01:01:06,370 --> 01:01:05,119
the Houdini's spirit was saying I'd love

1580
01:01:08,410 --> 01:01:06,380
to chat with you fellows but isn't gonna

1581
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:08,420
take too long that was fictionalized

1582
01:01:12,910 --> 01:01:09,890
however some people who were there

1583
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:12,920
claimed that there was a string of

1584
01:01:16,300 --> 01:01:14,960
characters that that was recognizable in

1585
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:16,310
the mystery you're gonna kind of random

1586
01:01:20,829 --> 01:01:19,130
noise or a jumble of letters and that

1587
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:20,839
was the letters that would spell out by

1588
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:24,290
young byj un Jeanne and some claim that

1589
01:01:29,140 --> 01:01:26,960
was just as a lab tech was walking by

1590
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:29,150
with a copy of the portable young you

1591
01:01:33,010 --> 01:01:31,250
know in her inner pocket so you know

1592
01:01:35,260 --> 01:01:33,020
some of them will say look you see how

1593
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:35,270
does we say you know monkeys on

1594
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:36,650
typewriters little type out Shakespeare

1595
01:01:39,700 --> 01:01:38,510
that's just a random fluctuation but you

1596
01:01:42,099 --> 01:01:39,710
know at the very least they were they

1597
01:01:43,810 --> 01:01:42,109
were never explore the foundations of

1598
01:01:44,500 --> 01:01:43,820
quantum theory and you know it like I'd

1599
01:01:46,750 --> 01:01:44,510
have a good time

1600
01:01:48,609 --> 01:01:46,760
one question I have here which is

1601
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:48,619
something we can explore as we continue

1602
01:01:52,900 --> 01:01:50,930
with this episode and we are going to

1603
01:01:55,230 --> 01:01:52,910
have to our break very shortly the

1604
01:01:58,229 --> 01:01:55,240
question I have here is for regular

1605
01:02:01,239 --> 01:01:58,239
normal people what

1606
01:02:02,979 --> 01:02:01,249
technology did these people develop in

1607
01:02:04,690 --> 01:02:02,989
the seventies that we could recognize

1608
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:04,700
today I'm not talking necessarily about

1609
01:02:10,479 --> 01:02:07,130
quantum entanglements but things that

1610
01:02:12,460 --> 01:02:10,489
people to buy in the store anything well

1611
01:02:13,870 --> 01:02:12,470
sure and one technology was the popular

1612
01:02:15,450 --> 01:02:13,880
book I mean some of these the

1613
01:02:17,700 --> 01:02:15,460
best-selling books of that generation

1614
01:02:19,930 --> 01:02:17,710
were written by members of that group

1615
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:19,940
like the data physics and I mentioned

1616
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:22,130
like the dancing woolly masters by Gary

1617
01:02:26,890 --> 01:02:24,890
Zhukov Jack Sarfatti and Fred Alan wolf

1618
01:02:28,450 --> 01:02:26,900
Row one with their friends Bob Tobin

1619
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:28,460
they really helped jumpstart the whole

1620
01:02:32,140 --> 01:02:31,130
genre called space ton and beyond and in

1621
01:02:33,969 --> 01:02:32,150
fact there were you know about a dozen

1622
01:02:35,140 --> 01:02:33,979
of these books that came out so that's

1623
01:02:37,299 --> 01:02:35,150
one way that they were getting the

1624
01:02:38,859 --> 01:02:37,309
message out literally into the hands of

1625
01:02:41,019 --> 01:02:38,869
soon to be you know hundreds of

1626
01:02:42,759 --> 01:02:41,029
thousands if not millions of people I'm

1627
01:02:44,739 --> 01:02:42,769
going to ask you more to flesh that out

1628
01:02:47,170 --> 01:02:44,749
in our next segment with David Kaiser

1629
01:02:55,479 --> 01:02:47,180
the co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene

1630
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:55,489
Steinberg you're in the para cast have

1631
01:02:58,960 --> 01:02:57,410
you been sitting on a few great domain

1632
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name ideas but haven't locked them in

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for yourself good now you can buy them

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through the number one domain name

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registrar namecheap.com as voted by the

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top tech blog life hacker just like the

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name says you can buy domains cheap as

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low as $2.99 and every new domain comes

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with who is guard our special privacy

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service free for the first year now that

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you know it's time to grab those domain

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names before someone else does

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namecheap.com go now namecheap.com fate

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magazine provides true reports of the

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strange and unknown keep up with the

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latest on angels and miracle psychic

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and much much more

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magazine call now at one eight hundred

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visit their website at wwlp.com that's

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one eight hundred seven two eight twenty

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seven thirty what are you waiting for

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your fate awaits again the Congressional

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Budget Office sounds the alarm

1657
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:55,160
this time warns of greek-style US debt

1658
01:03:59,319 --> 01:03:57,650
crisis you heard me right the GAO is

1659
01:04:01,539 --> 01:03:59,329
drawing a parallel between the US

1660
01:04:04,269 --> 01:04:01,549
economy its debt and the current Greek

1661
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economic meltdown with a debt to GDP

1662
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chart climbing into unfamiliar territory

1663
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the growing budget deficit will rise to

1664
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unsupportable levels hi this is Ted

1665
01:04:13,839 --> 01:04:11,599
Anderson

1666
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the federal debt and risk of financial

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crises document the CBO has published is

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a must-read for every American

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covering the risk of continued deficit

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spending coupled with an aging

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spell economic disaster it's imperative

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[Music]

1721
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:52,140
America's number one source for

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01:07:06,840 --> 01:06:55,890
independent authoring for over a decade

1723
01:07:08,940 --> 01:07:06,850
we are the gcn radio network we want to

1724
01:07:10,890 --> 01:07:08,950
hear from you if you have a comment or

1725
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:10,900
question about the para cast sent it to

1726
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:15,130
news at the para cast com that's news at

1727
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:16,690
the para cast com

1728
01:07:20,550 --> 01:07:18,160
but if you want to catch up on past

1729
01:07:22,770 --> 01:07:20,560
episodes we have hundreds of shows for

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01:07:26,810 --> 01:07:22,780
you to download direct from the para

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01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:26,820
cast com that's the para cast calm or

1732
01:07:37,050 --> 01:07:34,110
we have David Kiser and he is a

1733
01:07:41,550 --> 01:07:37,060
professor over at MIT we're talking

1734
01:07:44,310 --> 01:07:41,560
about those wacky physicists hippie type

1735
01:07:46,740 --> 01:07:44,320
people from the 70s with gene and Chris

1736
01:07:48,300 --> 01:07:46,750
and the para casts of the other part of

1737
01:07:50,700 --> 01:07:48,310
the question is of course they came out

1738
01:07:52,860 --> 01:07:50,710
with books best-selling books what about

1739
01:07:55,140 --> 01:07:52,870
consumer electronics other products that

1740
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:55,150
we could buy in the store is anything

1741
01:07:58,560 --> 01:07:56,650
they developed from all this research

1742
01:07:59,910 --> 01:07:58,570
you none that I know of the main one

1743
01:08:02,340 --> 01:07:59,920
like I said that a trace of the book is

1744
01:08:04,950 --> 01:08:02,350
it's helping to lay the theoretical

1745
01:08:06,330 --> 01:08:04,960
groundwork for these very very fancy

1746
01:08:08,130 --> 01:08:06,340
devices today like quantum encryption

1747
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:08,140
but those are the ones that I know of I

1748
01:08:11,940 --> 01:08:09,730
remember most these members of the group

1749
01:08:13,650 --> 01:08:11,950
were theoretical physicists how they

1750
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:13,660
worked with some laser physicists like

1751
01:08:17,550 --> 01:08:16,210
how boots off and Russell Targ but for

1752
01:08:19,079 --> 01:08:17,560
the most part they were theorists who

1753
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:19,089
worried about the kind of structure the

1754
01:08:22,140 --> 01:08:20,530
equations and and what it might mean

1755
01:08:24,300 --> 01:08:22,150
about the universe and so they were

1756
01:08:26,550 --> 01:08:24,310
their thoughts were going more to the we

1757
01:08:28,620 --> 01:08:26,560
might say ethereal realm you know well I

1758
01:08:29,930 --> 01:08:28,630
have a question here now no we're

1759
01:08:31,950 --> 01:08:29,940
talking about their influence and

1760
01:08:34,410 --> 01:08:31,960
impossible developments that were

1761
01:08:36,390 --> 01:08:34,420
inspired by these guys and who mentioned

1762
01:08:39,410 --> 01:08:36,400
that the perhaps a premier quantum

1763
01:08:42,329 --> 01:08:39,420
mechanics researcher is Anton Zeilinger

1764
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:42,339
who's an Austrian physicist to what

1765
01:08:47,550 --> 01:08:44,080
extent do you think you know modern

1766
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:47,560
carnet cutting-edge physicists or have

1767
01:08:52,260 --> 01:08:50,170
work influenced by these guys and do we

1768
01:08:53,970 --> 01:08:52,270
see some sort of influence now in the

1769
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:53,980
modern physics world did they help

1770
01:08:57,690 --> 01:08:55,810
loosen up the field a little bit get

1771
01:08:59,490 --> 01:08:57,700
people thinking more creatively or what

1772
01:09:01,769 --> 01:08:59,500
what is their legacy really now in

1773
01:09:04,049 --> 01:09:01,779
modern physics so I think in

1774
01:09:06,660 --> 01:09:04,059
sort of tight focus they do have a

1775
01:09:07,890 --> 01:09:06,670
legacy in these very specific results on

1776
01:09:09,660 --> 01:09:07,900
that I mentioned before like the

1777
01:09:11,519 --> 01:09:09,670
no-cloning theorem no signalling and

1778
01:09:13,169 --> 01:09:11,529
quantum limits to amplifiers and those

1779
01:09:14,910 --> 01:09:13,179
are technical developments that really

1780
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:14,920
are kind of bedrock for a whole

1781
01:09:18,450 --> 01:09:17,289
flourishing field today and again it's

1782
01:09:20,279 --> 01:09:18,460
not that the folks I write about

1783
01:09:22,709 --> 01:09:20,289
uniquely found those things but they

1784
01:09:25,470 --> 01:09:22,719
really had a major hand in pushing that

1785
01:09:27,809 --> 01:09:25,480
whole program forward and often you're

1786
01:09:29,669 --> 01:09:27,819
designing the the devices in the

1787
01:09:31,079 --> 01:09:29,679
debunking of which these insights would

1788
01:09:32,819 --> 01:09:31,089
appear so they were there clearly there

1789
01:09:33,899 --> 01:09:32,829
and those I think are you know they're

1790
01:09:35,370 --> 01:09:33,909
they're incredibly important

1791
01:09:36,870 --> 01:09:35,380
developments that that we just didn't

1792
01:09:38,370 --> 01:09:36,880
know about before these folks got in the

1793
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:38,380
game and then if we zoom out a little

1794
01:09:42,299 --> 01:09:40,329
bit you know these folks were the early

1795
01:09:43,649 --> 01:09:42,309
adopters on Bell's Theorem more broadly

1796
01:09:46,379 --> 01:09:43,659
I mean they were the ones who said

1797
01:09:48,089 --> 01:09:46,389
before long before this is at all common

1798
01:09:50,999 --> 01:09:48,099
for physicists even paying attention to

1799
01:09:53,249 --> 01:09:51,009
the quantum entanglement is baffling and

1800
01:09:54,839 --> 01:09:53,259
probably really really important they as

1801
01:09:57,450 --> 01:09:54,849
I write in the book they rescued that

1802
01:09:59,279 --> 01:09:57,460
topic from a decade of obscurity they

1803
01:10:00,810 --> 01:09:59,289
forced it on the agenda for at least a

1804
01:10:02,459 --> 01:10:00,820
few other physicists in addition to

1805
01:10:04,799 --> 01:10:02,469
their own and so they helped to kind of

1806
01:10:06,450 --> 01:10:04,809
get it back into the mainstream or or or

1807
01:10:08,220 --> 01:10:06,460
get a few people really excited about it

1808
01:10:09,750 --> 01:10:08,230
and then if we zoom out further yeah

1809
01:10:12,930 --> 01:10:09,760
they wrote those books like I mentioned

1810
01:10:14,850 --> 01:10:12,940
they really inspired a whole genre of

1811
01:10:16,529 --> 01:10:14,860
popular physics writing and getting a

1812
01:10:18,629 --> 01:10:16,539
lot of this stuff out into into the

1813
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:18,639
public some of which in fact this really

1814
01:10:22,799 --> 01:10:20,320
surprised me actually some which got

1815
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:22,809
used in formal physics classes in the

1816
01:10:28,319 --> 01:10:26,170
classroom as a kind of proxy textbook

1817
01:10:29,879 --> 01:10:28,329
before the regular old textbooks caught

1818
01:10:31,049 --> 01:10:29,889
up with the new stuff about quantum

1819
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:31,059
theory like Bell's Theorem

1820
01:10:34,410 --> 01:10:32,650
it looks like the lucky ones we

1821
01:10:36,899 --> 01:10:34,420
mentioned written by these folks or

1822
01:10:38,549 --> 01:10:36,909
formal lesson plans that were published

1823
01:10:40,379 --> 01:10:38,559
inspired by those books new by

1824
01:10:42,859 --> 01:10:40,389
physicists who were we're talking with

1825
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:42,869
them pretty regularly they had a kind of

1826
01:10:47,370 --> 01:10:45,130
direct pedagogical impact in the

1827
01:10:49,529 --> 01:10:47,380
classroom that you know that it was

1828
01:10:51,209 --> 01:10:49,539
important in the era before these sort

1829
01:10:53,310 --> 01:10:51,219
of slow-moving textbooks could catch up

1830
01:10:54,839 --> 01:10:53,320
so if we consider the zoom out from a

1831
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:54,849
tight focus to get broader and broader

1832
01:10:58,109 --> 01:10:56,650
and again it's not like these folks

1833
01:11:00,120 --> 01:10:58,119
single-handedly changed the world out of

1834
01:11:01,379 --> 01:11:00,130
the gate a small group ever does but

1835
01:11:02,939 --> 01:11:01,389
they were they were really having an

1836
01:11:04,620 --> 01:11:02,949
impact they have a legacy that if we

1837
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:04,630
know where to look for it we can start

1838
01:11:07,709 --> 01:11:06,010
seeing some of that signs of it even

1839
01:11:09,359 --> 01:11:07,719
today now one of the topics often

1840
01:11:12,750 --> 01:11:09,369
discussed when we talk about the word

1841
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:12,760
quantum is quantum computing now is this

1842
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:14,650
such a thing possible we're all living

1843
01:11:16,700 --> 01:11:14,850
in the

1844
01:11:19,700 --> 01:11:16,710
world of ones and zeroes the digital

1845
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:19,710
world is this really the next stage of

1846
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:22,410
computing I you know I have a feeling it

1847
01:11:25,550 --> 01:11:24,000
really is it's not the area of physics

1848
01:11:26,990 --> 01:11:25,560
that I work indirectly I have a number

1849
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:27,000
of colleagues who do they're really

1850
01:11:31,820 --> 01:11:30,330
smart and they make a good case and I

1851
01:11:34,190 --> 01:11:31,830
think there is I mean there are working

1852
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:34,200
prototypes of sort of low capacity

1853
01:11:38,180 --> 01:11:36,210
compared to and it was laptop on their

1854
01:11:40,010 --> 01:11:38,190
desktop right now an attack but these

1855
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:40,020
things are taking advantage of this

1856
01:11:43,910 --> 01:11:41,850
fundamental quantum property things like

1857
01:11:45,710 --> 01:11:43,920
superposition or indeed entanglement and

1858
01:11:47,630 --> 01:11:45,720
Bell's Theorem that are being you know

1859
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:47,640
literally wired in from the start and

1860
01:11:50,900 --> 01:11:49,410
these folks can keep these things you

1861
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:50,910
know they have to put him in cryogenic

1862
01:11:54,740 --> 01:11:52,410
coolers after treatment was great

1863
01:11:56,450 --> 01:11:54,750
nimbleness so far but nonetheless

1864
01:11:57,740 --> 01:11:56,460
they've built a few of these things as

1865
01:11:59,510 --> 01:11:57,750
well as worked out incredibly

1866
01:12:01,520 --> 01:11:59,520
complicated and sophisticated

1867
01:12:03,260 --> 01:12:01,530
you know the theoretical descriptions

1868
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:03,270
it's not something that I can buy at the

1869
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:05,520
Apple store next year not yet no it's

1870
01:12:10,670 --> 01:12:07,170
not it's not going to be in the iPhone 5

1871
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:10,680
are these things practical that we see

1872
01:12:14,810 --> 01:12:12,690
that 5 10 years from now if we can

1873
01:12:16,910 --> 01:12:14,820
figure how to get a handle on it and we

1874
01:12:19,130 --> 01:12:16,920
don't have to live in cyber genic

1875
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:19,140
laboratories and stuff that we can take

1876
01:12:24,050 --> 01:12:21,330
this stuff and actually use it in

1877
01:12:25,820 --> 01:12:24,060
products for Space Exploration and then

1878
01:12:27,260 --> 01:12:25,830
ultimately the consumer world yeah

1879
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:27,270
that's definitely the intention and so

1880
01:12:31,130 --> 01:12:29,610
again it's I'm not an expert on the

1881
01:12:32,750 --> 01:12:31,140
nitty-gritty of it these days but I know

1882
01:12:34,220 --> 01:12:32,760
that's that's certainly what's driving a

1883
01:12:36,590 --> 01:12:34,230
lot of his excitement whether it's gonna

1884
01:12:38,450 --> 01:12:36,600
be 10 years from now or 20 or 50 I think

1885
01:12:39,950 --> 01:12:38,460
it's certainly you know odds are good

1886
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:39,960
it's gonna be coming well what direction

1887
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:41,490
is quantum physics going in right now

1888
01:12:46,130 --> 01:12:44,010
what are the exciting papers that are

1889
01:12:48,230 --> 01:12:46,140
being you know published and what's

1890
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:48,240
what's the buzz going around the field

1891
01:12:51,440 --> 01:12:50,010
right now I think there's a lot I mean

1892
01:12:53,270 --> 01:12:51,450
by now quantum physics is central to

1893
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:53,280
virtually everything that physicists

1894
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:54,570
want to work on so there are different

1895
01:12:58,400 --> 01:12:56,370
aspects of quantum theory which shows up

1896
01:13:00,080 --> 01:12:58,410
as relevant in different ways so whether

1897
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:00,090
it's nanotechnology which is actually

1898
01:13:04,010 --> 01:13:01,650
pushing a single atoms around that's

1899
01:13:06,140 --> 01:13:04,020
clearly deeply involved in quantum

1900
01:13:07,910 --> 01:13:06,150
theory which was the subject Coruscant

1901
01:13:09,860 --> 01:13:07,920
areas first designed for understanding

1902
01:13:12,260 --> 01:13:09,870
single atoms or just a small number of

1903
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:12,270
atoms so the entire you know humongous

1904
01:13:15,500 --> 01:13:14,130
elephant of the rules nanotech it's

1905
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:15,510
basically putting quantum theory to work

1906
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:17,370
in one way and then go from there all

1907
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:19,050
the way to the opposite scale and look

1908
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:21,090
at quantum cosmology closer to an area I

1909
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:22,650
actually work in it physics

1910
01:13:25,670 --> 01:13:23,850
you're the excitement about string

1911
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:25,680
theory or trying to quantize general

1912
01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:27,450
relativity the excitement about the

1913
01:13:30,529 --> 01:13:28,289
universe and

1914
01:13:32,859 --> 01:13:30,539
multiverse are we one bubble among an

1915
01:13:35,599 --> 01:13:32,869
infinitude those are all making you know

1916
01:13:36,529 --> 01:13:35,609
taking advantage of weird properties of

1917
01:13:37,399 --> 01:13:36,539
quantum theory sort of in a different

1918
01:13:39,199 --> 01:13:37,409
direction

1919
01:13:41,239 --> 01:13:39,209
so I think pretty much anywhere you look

1920
01:13:43,250 --> 01:13:41,249
these days quantities can be incredibly

1921
01:13:45,289 --> 01:13:43,260
central and and it's sort of inherent

1922
01:13:48,919 --> 01:13:45,299
wackiness it's coming to light well we

1923
01:13:51,020 --> 01:13:48,929
know in ufology for instance we do we do

1924
01:13:53,059 --> 01:13:51,030
cover that subject quite extensively you

1925
01:13:55,819 --> 01:13:53,069
know on our show one of the things that

1926
01:13:58,069 --> 01:13:55,829
you occasionally walk here is someone

1927
01:13:59,569 --> 01:13:58,079
that does not buy in lock stock and

1928
01:14:01,819 --> 01:13:59,579
barrel into an extraterrestrial

1929
01:14:03,979 --> 01:14:01,829
hypothesis for you know what's behind

1930
01:14:06,909 --> 01:14:03,989
the UFO phenomenon and you hear

1931
01:14:09,889 --> 01:14:06,919
buzzwords like that they're

1932
01:14:12,679 --> 01:14:09,899
multi-dimensional is based on our

1933
01:14:14,329 --> 01:14:12,689
knowledge right now which is probably in

1934
01:14:16,339 --> 01:14:14,339
a dimensional sense pretty limited but

1935
01:14:19,579 --> 01:14:16,349
do you think that there's a possibility

1936
01:14:21,409 --> 01:14:19,589
that we may be visited by the denizens

1937
01:14:23,719 --> 01:14:21,419
of some other dimension is that is that

1938
01:14:25,009 --> 01:14:23,729
a possibility you as a scientist you

1939
01:14:26,599 --> 01:14:25,019
know I wouldn't discount her as a

1940
01:14:28,189 --> 01:14:26,609
possibility I also wouldn't rate it has

1941
01:14:29,959 --> 01:14:28,199
a very high possibility but that's just

1942
01:14:32,719 --> 01:14:29,969
a good very well be living here my own

1943
01:14:34,339 --> 01:14:32,729
limited imagination or knowledge so we

1944
01:14:36,049 --> 01:14:34,349
could we could unpack that I think about

1945
01:14:37,849 --> 01:14:36,059
doing like a Drake Equation for the

1946
01:14:39,259 --> 01:14:37,859
version you just described what's the

1947
01:14:41,989 --> 01:14:39,269
likelihood that the universe that we

1948
01:14:43,579 --> 01:14:41,999
live in has extra spatial dimensions you

1949
01:14:45,619 --> 01:14:43,589
have the likelihood of that is actually

1950
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:45,629
I was a higher better reason to believe

1951
01:14:48,979 --> 01:14:47,489
that now than even you know 20 or 30

1952
01:14:50,629 --> 01:14:48,989
years ago so that's a pretty big change

1953
01:14:52,219 --> 01:14:50,639
or at least better reasons to worry

1954
01:14:53,809 --> 01:14:52,229
about it to think of that it has very

1955
01:14:56,239 --> 01:14:53,819
specific motivations that put it on the

1956
01:14:57,709 --> 01:14:56,249
table now and so if that increases the

1957
01:14:59,270 --> 01:14:57,719
overall likelihood for the rest of your

1958
01:15:00,829 --> 01:14:59,280
scenario you know that's it that's sort

1959
01:15:03,020 --> 01:15:00,839
of how the science has to it seems to me

1960
01:15:05,569 --> 01:15:03,030
what would go along and and more

1961
01:15:08,719 --> 01:15:05,579
importantly if there are ways to to get

1962
01:15:10,339 --> 01:15:08,729
experimental observational input on are

1963
01:15:12,379 --> 01:15:10,349
there extra dimensions whatever how are

1964
01:15:14,389 --> 01:15:12,389
they characterized and you know people

1965
01:15:16,609 --> 01:15:14,399
are hoping they might have some glimpse

1966
01:15:18,349 --> 01:15:16,619
to long shot maybe chemical in something

1967
01:15:21,020 --> 01:15:18,359
like that in the Large Hadron Collider

1968
01:15:22,639 --> 01:15:21,030
that's now spinning up in CERN or maybe

1969
01:15:25,250 --> 01:15:22,649
by a different sort of mechanism

1970
01:15:27,079 --> 01:15:25,260
mechanism might affect the very subtle

1971
01:15:28,909 --> 01:15:27,089
bumps and Wiggles in the Cosmic

1972
01:15:30,139 --> 01:15:28,919
Microwave Background I mean there that's

1973
01:15:32,089 --> 01:15:30,149
again have to kind of cutting-edge

1974
01:15:34,009 --> 01:15:32,099
research questions who are there extra

1975
01:15:35,599 --> 01:15:34,019
dimensions and if so how do we

1976
01:15:37,069 --> 01:15:35,609
understand them what and then what my

1977
01:15:39,559 --> 01:15:37,079
what else might they imply what are they

1978
01:15:40,700 --> 01:15:39,569
open up know do you think that this is

1979
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:40,710
one of them works

1980
01:15:46,169 --> 01:15:44,050
right dimensional speaking we have David

1981
01:15:51,620 --> 01:15:46,179
Kiser Chrissa Brian's the co-host I'm

1982
01:15:58,020 --> 01:15:54,830
[Music]

1983
01:16:00,479 --> 01:15:58,030
Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned

1984
01:16:02,450 --> 01:16:00,489
out from the Gulf War lives tortured by

1985
01:16:04,709 --> 01:16:02,460
relentless perplexing nightmares

1986
01:16:06,450 --> 01:16:04,719
nightmares of a horrific battle in deep

1987
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:06,460
space and of a mysterious woman

1988
01:16:11,370 --> 01:16:08,530
suffering an agony for her devastated

1989
01:16:14,930 --> 01:16:11,380
world a woman not yet born calling

1990
01:16:17,399 --> 01:16:14,940
across centuries to him then a

1991
01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:17,409
coincidence leads him to his destiny his

1992
01:16:22,740 --> 01:16:20,650
chance to alter the universe attack of

1993
01:16:24,450 --> 01:16:22,750
the rocket the former fiction editor for

1994
01:16:26,550 --> 01:16:24,460
Star Wars and Indiana Jones Robert

1995
01:16:28,229 --> 01:16:26,560
Simpson writes the soul of the novel

1996
01:16:29,550 --> 01:16:28,239
attack of the rock Owens lies in its

1997
01:16:31,379 --> 01:16:29,560
heart and passion for building a

1998
01:16:34,140 --> 01:16:31,389
convincing tale of a love that spans the

1999
01:16:36,750 --> 01:16:34,150
galaxy a thrilling story attack of the

2000
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rocket is available now read a simple

2001
01:16:40,020 --> 01:16:38,380
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2002
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2003
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Rocko is calm that's our Ock o IDs calm

2004
01:16:50,729 --> 01:16:48,130
attack of the rod a novel in the grand

2005
01:16:52,979 --> 01:16:50,739
science-fiction tradition hey Brian if

2006
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you could do just one thing today to

2007
01:16:56,100 --> 01:16:55,719
ensure your family's food security what

2008
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would it be

2009
01:17:01,860 --> 01:16:58,750
that's easy bill I the head straight to

2010
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2011
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2012
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2013
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2014
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2015
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super survival food Brian these aren't

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grocery store beans are they the whole

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way bill you're not gonna find these

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2080
01:19:55,540 --> 01:19:53,210
of searching for great talk-radio

2081
01:20:02,080 --> 01:19:55,550
commute more important

2082
01:20:05,260 --> 01:20:02,090
Snover we are the gcn radio network hi

2083
01:20:08,050 --> 01:20:05,270
this is Don Ecker and you are tuned in

2084
01:20:10,660 --> 01:20:08,060
to the para CASP let me tell you what

2085
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:10,670
you're gonna hear stuff here that you

2086
01:20:20,770 --> 01:20:18,880
we're back with David Kiser talking

2087
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:20,780
about I guess cutting-edge physics

2088
01:20:27,070 --> 01:20:23,810
quantum mechanics all that stuff that

2089
01:20:29,260 --> 01:20:27,080
way out there stuff with David Kaiser

2090
01:20:31,270 --> 01:20:29,270
I'm Jean Steinberg the co-host is Chris

2091
01:20:34,510 --> 01:20:31,280
O'Brien Chris before we did our break

2092
01:20:36,850 --> 01:20:34,520
you had started a question well you know

2093
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:36,860
I've just been seeing so much in the

2094
01:20:43,270 --> 01:20:39,410
news lately spokespeople like Michio

2095
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:43,280
Kaku is a just a such and a good writer

2096
01:20:48,220 --> 01:20:46,130
and and and there are other writers in

2097
01:20:49,690 --> 01:20:48,230
it similar to the books in the early

2098
01:20:51,580 --> 01:20:49,700
seventies it came out in fact that's

2099
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:51,590
where I first learned about quantum

2100
01:20:55,540 --> 01:20:53,360
quantum physics it was in the DAO

2101
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:55,550
physics and the dancing would leave

2102
01:20:57,790 --> 01:20:56,930
masses there there were several other

2103
01:21:00,160 --> 01:20:57,800
books as well

2104
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:00,170
people like Michio Kaku now I think are

2105
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:02,210
they're so accessible and there's

2106
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:04,810
they're elegantly able to relay such

2107
01:21:10,780 --> 01:21:07,250
mind-boggling information to lay people

2108
01:21:13,270 --> 01:21:10,790
I get a sense that quantum physics is in

2109
01:21:15,340 --> 01:21:13,280
a real is in a real up period right now

2110
01:21:18,190 --> 01:21:15,350
how would you rate this time period now

2111
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:18,200
in terms of excitement in the field I

2112
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:19,970
definitely agree and I agree both about

2113
01:21:24,430 --> 01:21:22,610
the talented writers now like Michio

2114
01:21:26,290 --> 01:21:24,440
Kaku like Brian Greene it's like lots of

2115
01:21:29,050 --> 01:21:26,300
people I think they are they are really

2116
01:21:31,090 --> 01:21:29,060
good at that and even even when they're

2117
01:21:33,490 --> 01:21:31,100
not trying to necessarily write engaging

2118
01:21:35,020 --> 01:21:33,500
books for for non-specialists you know

2119
01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:35,030
in their own offices I think you're

2120
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:36,800
right it is an exciting time you know

2121
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:38,930
one like my colleagues at MIT is Max

2122
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:42,290
tegmark and he you know he I think he'd

2123
01:21:46,090 --> 01:21:44,210
share that as sort of wild giddy

2124
01:21:47,980 --> 01:21:46,100
enthusiasm for Seth Lloyd or all these

2125
01:21:49,480 --> 01:21:47,990
folks and I think it partly for the

2126
01:21:51,190 --> 01:21:49,490
reason I said before I mean when we go

2127
01:21:53,500 --> 01:21:51,200
to the hyper small to the

2128
01:21:55,690 --> 01:21:53,510
mind-bogglingly large in each direction

2129
01:21:58,000 --> 01:21:55,700
we're getting to new insights into

2130
01:21:59,470 --> 01:21:58,010
quantum theory it's it's leading some

2131
01:22:01,960 --> 01:21:59,480
new questions and often to some really

2132
01:22:04,030 --> 01:22:01,970
very fancy new experiments as well so I

2133
01:22:06,820 --> 01:22:04,040
you know I the the subtitle for my book

2134
01:22:07,870 --> 01:22:06,830
was the quantum revival and I think that

2135
01:22:08,899 --> 01:22:07,880
that was really meant to say there's

2136
01:22:10,699 --> 01:22:08,909
there's an exciting

2137
01:22:13,370 --> 01:22:10,709
going on now and I think a lot of

2138
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:13,380
physicists you will feel that let me ask

2139
01:22:16,609 --> 01:22:15,090
you a question that kind of arises from

2140
01:22:17,839 --> 01:22:16,619
that we're looking at all this

2141
01:22:20,779 --> 01:22:17,849
cutting-edge science

2142
01:22:22,609 --> 01:22:20,789
how does organized religion handle all

2143
01:22:24,020 --> 01:22:22,619
these developments or can they well I

2144
01:22:26,390 --> 01:22:24,030
don't know I mean to be honest is not

2145
01:22:27,500 --> 01:22:26,400
the area of my expertise I think there

2146
01:22:29,359 --> 01:22:27,510
might be different responses from

2147
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:29,369
different you know traditions and

2148
01:22:33,169 --> 01:22:31,650
religious communities one thing I will

2149
01:22:35,659 --> 01:22:33,179
say psych take us off track one thing

2150
01:22:38,140 --> 01:22:35,669
that was interesting to me was seeing

2151
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:38,150
the rise of a kind of anti Big Bang

2152
01:22:42,259 --> 01:22:41,010
fervor from some corners of a kind of

2153
01:22:43,159 --> 01:22:42,269
creationist or intelligent design

2154
01:22:44,540 --> 01:22:43,169
science

2155
01:22:46,459 --> 01:22:44,550
so some folks seemed not very

2156
01:22:47,659 --> 01:22:46,469
comfortable and very happy with the

2157
01:22:50,359 --> 01:22:47,669
picture we have of a Big Bang

2158
01:22:51,919 --> 01:22:50,369
inflationary cosmology the sort of

2159
01:22:54,020 --> 01:22:51,929
mainstream view of how the universe

2160
01:22:55,069 --> 01:22:54,030
began and so some of the folks who would

2161
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:55,079
otherwise be spending a lot of time

2162
01:22:59,299 --> 01:22:56,880
critiquing you know Darwinian natural

2163
01:23:00,529 --> 01:22:59,309
selection biology classrooms some of

2164
01:23:01,699 --> 01:23:00,539
them turned have turned their sights on

2165
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:01,709
to the Big Bang so that's one example

2166
01:23:05,179 --> 01:23:03,449
it's certainly not the only one example

2167
01:23:06,379 --> 01:23:05,189
of you know kind of religion or

2168
01:23:08,239 --> 01:23:06,389
spirituality and couching these

2169
01:23:09,379 --> 01:23:08,249
questions just to say there's gonna be a

2170
01:23:11,330 --> 01:23:09,389
mixed bag and I don't know

2171
01:23:13,009 --> 01:23:11,340
you know who's giving the most serious

2172
01:23:15,589 --> 01:23:13,019
thought to that I haven't been it's not

2173
01:23:18,979 --> 01:23:15,599
where I would really be an expert was

2174
01:23:21,319 --> 01:23:18,989
the impact to religion anything that

2175
01:23:23,239 --> 01:23:21,329
they thought about when all those hippy

2176
01:23:24,290 --> 01:23:23,249
scientists were getting together all

2177
01:23:27,919 --> 01:23:24,300
those years ago

2178
01:23:31,009 --> 01:23:27,929
I think some more than others so people

2179
01:23:34,279 --> 01:23:31,019
like Fritjof Capra I think we're really

2180
01:23:36,409 --> 01:23:34,289
earnestly genuinely interested in into

2181
01:23:38,750 --> 01:23:36,419
the eastern worldview a very religious

2182
01:23:42,109 --> 01:23:38,760
spiritual worldview Hinduism Buddhism

2183
01:23:44,839 --> 01:23:42,119
you know Confucius and that whole dowas

2184
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:44,849
and all the rest and so so Fritjof was

2185
01:23:48,379 --> 01:23:46,650
you became the kind of devoted student

2186
01:23:49,819 --> 01:23:48,389
to that he was reading everything it

2187
01:23:51,140 --> 01:23:49,829
could he'd go to all the seminars in the

2188
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:51,150
Bay Area he could and even when he

2189
01:23:55,310 --> 01:23:53,010
wanted left at the area so for some

2190
01:23:57,350 --> 01:23:55,320
people yes I think religion or at least

2191
01:23:58,959 --> 01:23:57,360
some kind of spirituality was central

2192
01:24:01,129 --> 01:23:58,969
was absolutely central to that ongoing

2193
01:24:02,449 --> 01:24:01,139
evolving set of questions I'm not sure

2194
01:24:04,370 --> 01:24:02,459
it played the same role or had the same

2195
01:24:06,109 --> 01:24:04,380
impact even for all members just as that

2196
01:24:08,089 --> 01:24:06,119
tiny group let alone for other folks you

2197
01:24:09,500 --> 01:24:08,099
know at the time so for some of them

2198
01:24:11,629 --> 01:24:09,510
yeah you can definitely see that was an

2199
01:24:14,359 --> 01:24:11,639
important feature okay so looking

2200
01:24:17,870 --> 01:24:14,369
further at the impact what about the

2201
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:17,880
fact that our space program has been cut

2202
01:24:21,799 --> 01:24:20,010
down in a large way especially at the

2203
01:24:25,790 --> 01:24:21,809
end of the shuttle program

2204
01:24:27,770 --> 01:24:25,800
that hurt this kind of research I don't

2205
01:24:29,359 --> 01:24:27,780
know if it'll hurt in a direct way I

2206
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:29,369
think it might hurt more in the sense of

2207
01:24:32,959 --> 01:24:31,170
who's asking the big weird out their

2208
01:24:35,899 --> 01:24:32,969
questions and who's gonna be inspired by

2209
01:24:37,790 --> 01:24:35,909
amazing things you know I don't think

2210
01:24:39,919 --> 01:24:37,800
there was much of a budget spill over at

2211
01:24:41,959 --> 01:24:39,929
least done that I know of I don't think

2212
01:24:44,419 --> 01:24:41,969
we cash it out nickels and dimes from

2213
01:24:46,220 --> 01:24:44,429
one appropriation line to another but I

2214
01:24:48,319 --> 01:24:46,230
think you know the larger question of

2215
01:24:50,450 --> 01:24:48,329
what's our place in the universe what

2216
01:24:52,700 --> 01:24:50,460
does it all mean I think a lot of people

2217
01:24:55,580 --> 01:24:52,710
for decades have found you know deep

2218
01:24:57,589 --> 01:24:55,590
deep inspiration from the space program

2219
01:24:58,459 --> 01:24:57,599
and you know so we want to work we want

2220
01:25:00,229 --> 01:24:58,469
to look at those we might say

2221
01:25:01,790 --> 01:25:00,239
second-order effects you know where

2222
01:25:05,299 --> 01:25:01,800
there are we might we might indeed see

2223
01:25:06,890 --> 01:25:05,309
an impact now what is your personal

2224
01:25:09,740 --> 01:25:06,900
opinion about this do you think they

2225
01:25:11,330 --> 01:25:09,750
went about all wrong and cutting back on

2226
01:25:13,669 --> 01:25:11,340
the space program yeah kind of think

2227
01:25:16,700 --> 01:25:13,679
that the promise that was realized with

2228
01:25:19,839 --> 01:25:16,710
the moon landing in 1969 you know it was

2229
01:25:22,910 --> 01:25:19,849
never really followed up in a huge way I

2230
01:25:24,799 --> 01:25:22,920
was a kid I was completely enamored of

2231
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:24,809
the space whenever my walls were covered

2232
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:27,090
till my president had you know like rock

2233
01:25:30,709 --> 01:25:29,010
star posters up and I was had you know

2234
01:25:33,620 --> 01:25:30,719
astronaut and the Space Shuttle posted

2235
01:25:35,419 --> 01:25:33,630
so so you know I I grew up with that

2236
01:25:36,740 --> 01:25:35,429
stuff I build model rockets and I'm

2237
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:36,750
gonna try to get my kids into that now

2238
01:25:41,660 --> 01:25:38,730
and so you know yeah I was definitely a

2239
01:25:43,729 --> 01:25:41,670
kind of space junkie and so it is pretty

2240
01:25:45,799 --> 01:25:43,739
pretty sad for me just personally to

2241
01:25:49,189 --> 01:25:45,809
realize that you know the last shuttle

2242
01:25:50,870 --> 01:25:49,199
launch has now passed and so on you know

2243
01:25:52,580 --> 01:25:50,880
on the other hand who knows maybe some

2244
01:25:55,279 --> 01:25:52,590
other you know exciting cool thing will

2245
01:25:57,020 --> 01:25:55,289
will start to take its place and so you

2246
01:25:58,700 --> 01:25:57,030
know where I put my historians cap back

2247
01:26:00,830 --> 01:25:58,710
on even even at the height of the Apollo

2248
01:26:03,470 --> 01:26:00,840
program you know there was a lot of

2249
01:26:05,569 --> 01:26:03,480
concern in this country about budget

2250
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:05,579
priorities not unlike today you know

2251
01:26:10,100 --> 01:26:07,770
cities were crumbling horrible you know

2252
01:26:12,169 --> 01:26:10,110
challenges and a lot of critics that

2253
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:12,179
even back then said you know there has

2254
01:26:15,410 --> 01:26:13,530
to be some kind of cost-benefit trade

2255
01:26:17,330 --> 01:26:15,420
off and I can only sympathize with those

2256
01:26:19,339 --> 01:26:17,340
concerns it's you know there's a limit

2257
01:26:20,450 --> 01:26:19,349
to what we can try to do and we're here

2258
01:26:22,669 --> 01:26:20,460
about these limits all the time these

2259
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:22,679
days financially you know economically

2260
01:26:26,629 --> 01:26:25,050
in this country so it's tricky I mean

2261
01:26:29,779 --> 01:26:26,639
what do we do to accomplish great things

2262
01:26:31,250 --> 01:26:29,789
to inspire just absolute euphoria in

2263
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:31,260
people what I think is incredibly

2264
01:26:35,050 --> 01:26:32,730
important for asking big questions

2265
01:26:36,340 --> 01:26:35,060
people keeping people excited

2266
01:26:38,770 --> 01:26:36,350
you know we don't have unlimited

2267
01:26:40,570 --> 01:26:38,780
resources so you know that's your

2268
01:26:41,710 --> 01:26:40,580
wishy-washy answer there I wish we could

2269
01:26:44,770 --> 01:26:41,720
do more I can understand why they're

2270
01:26:47,110 --> 01:26:44,780
living another question here is can we

2271
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:47,120
relate any of this research to the

2272
01:26:53,170 --> 01:26:50,330
sources for new forms of energy running

2273
01:26:56,350 --> 01:26:53,180
out of oil high price of oil looking at

2274
01:26:59,080 --> 01:26:56,360
all the alternatives electric cars

2275
01:27:01,150 --> 01:26:59,090
whatever is there anything in physics

2276
01:27:03,390 --> 01:27:01,160
that we could look to maybe an unlimited

2277
01:27:06,070 --> 01:27:03,400
source of energy free energy whatever

2278
01:27:07,720 --> 01:27:06,080
well you know so that's an idea where it

2279
01:27:10,630 --> 01:27:07,730
does get kicked around I would say sort

2280
01:27:11,620 --> 01:27:10,640
of on the margin still I'm not convinced

2281
01:27:13,420 --> 01:27:11,630
of that I'm not gonna say that's

2282
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:13,430
definitely right or wrong but it's I

2283
01:27:18,700 --> 01:27:16,730
think most mainstream physicists are not

2284
01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:18,710
you know convinced by that but again

2285
01:27:21,190 --> 01:27:19,760
that doesn't mean people shouldn't

2286
01:27:24,220 --> 01:27:21,200
should necessarily you know keep keep

2287
01:27:26,590 --> 01:27:24,230
pushing on it so people often will there

2288
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:26,600
are all kinds of you know terms and

2289
01:27:31,420 --> 01:27:29,090
jargon and look at you know pass around

2290
01:27:33,250 --> 01:27:31,430
on that and again I'll just say that I

2291
01:27:34,660 --> 01:27:33,260
haven't seen enough yet to be convinced

2292
01:27:36,220 --> 01:27:34,670
but that could be my fault and not the

2293
01:27:39,550 --> 01:27:36,230
fault of the folks you know we're

2294
01:27:41,350 --> 01:27:39,560
working on it now looking at the crazy

2295
01:27:43,570 --> 01:27:41,360
quilt stuff that we deal with on the

2296
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:43,580
power cast obviously you covered some of

2297
01:27:49,930 --> 01:27:47,050
that with the investigations at

2298
01:27:51,970 --> 01:27:49,940
universities of people who claim to have

2299
01:27:55,480 --> 01:27:51,980
various extrasensory powers

2300
01:27:58,930 --> 01:27:55,490
now if et is out there 50 light-years

2301
01:28:02,980 --> 01:27:58,940
from here does he or she or in have to

2302
01:28:05,020 --> 01:28:02,990
spend 50 years getting here how do they

2303
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:05,030
come here or do you think they have come

2304
01:28:10,150 --> 01:28:07,730
here well that's again that's a great

2305
01:28:12,100 --> 01:28:10,160
question so the first response would be

2306
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:12,110
to say they would probably take a lot

2307
01:28:15,730 --> 01:28:13,850
more than 50 years because they probably

2308
01:28:17,230 --> 01:28:15,740
couldn't travel even close to the actual

2309
01:28:19,150 --> 01:28:17,240
speed of light so if they're 50 light

2310
01:28:20,470 --> 01:28:19,160
years away they think it would take 50

2311
01:28:21,610 --> 01:28:20,480
years if they're because as you know if

2312
01:28:23,770 --> 01:28:21,620
they're traveling at the speed of light

2313
01:28:25,480 --> 01:28:23,780
if we believe eye signs relativity they

2314
01:28:27,790 --> 01:28:25,490
couldn't even get to that speed so okay

2315
01:28:29,530 --> 01:28:27,800
so we're looking at you know decades and

2316
01:28:35,340 --> 01:28:29,540
then on the other hand you know you can

2317
01:28:39,100 --> 01:28:35,350
you can ask about exam is is is really a

2318
01:28:40,330 --> 01:28:39,110
pretty weird fun thing to think about as

2319
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:40,340
if you take Einstein's general

2320
01:28:43,570 --> 01:28:42,290
relativity seriously you know could

2321
01:28:46,300 --> 01:28:43,580
there be wormholes could there be

2322
01:28:48,430 --> 01:28:46,310
non-trivial structures because everybody

2323
01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:48,440
could do these typologies in space

2324
01:28:51,459 --> 01:28:49,730
time that we just aren't aware of yet

2325
01:28:53,500 --> 01:28:51,469
that could be like the ultimate shortcut

2326
01:28:55,750 --> 01:28:53,510
and you know lots of people lots of

2327
01:28:57,430 --> 01:28:55,760
straight-laced university professors had

2328
01:28:58,900 --> 01:28:57,440
thought about that very hard let alone

2329
01:29:00,670 --> 01:28:58,910
other folks who find it inspiring and

2330
01:29:02,860 --> 01:29:00,680
wacky and who might be more onto margins

2331
01:29:04,959 --> 01:29:02,870
so again I wouldn't say no it could

2332
01:29:06,130 --> 01:29:04,969
never ever ever be shown because you

2333
01:29:08,350 --> 01:29:06,140
know look people like Stephen Hawking

2334
01:29:10,750 --> 01:29:08,360
worried about closed timelike pads

2335
01:29:13,470 --> 01:29:10,760
people like Kip Thorne at Cal Tech I've

2336
01:29:15,790 --> 01:29:13,480
done incredibly sophisticated studies of

2337
01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:15,800
exotic structures and Einstein's

2338
01:29:19,570 --> 01:29:17,210
relativity and wormholes and all the

2339
01:29:22,780 --> 01:29:19,580
rest so you know if that's again I play

2340
01:29:25,060 --> 01:29:22,790
that that's a fair question and one that

2341
01:29:26,979 --> 01:29:25,070
even if the answer Altima still turns

2342
01:29:29,590 --> 01:29:26,989
out to be no we're going to learn a lot

2343
01:29:31,570 --> 01:29:29,600
in the process we have David Kaiser

2344
01:29:33,939 --> 01:29:31,580
learning a lot in the process this is

2345
01:29:36,729 --> 01:29:33,949
your science school where we're trying

2346
01:29:40,300 --> 01:29:36,739
to look at cutting-edge science in a way

2347
01:29:43,630 --> 01:29:40,310
that we can all relate to it we have a

2348
01:29:52,620 --> 01:29:43,640
co-host Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg

2349
01:29:57,180 --> 01:29:54,980
[Music]

2350
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life the gcn radio network providing the

2430
01:34:05,970 --> 01:33:57,610
world with hard-hitting talk radio g c--

2431
01:34:08,910 --> 01:34:05,980
great talk radio starts here hi this is

2432
01:34:12,740 --> 01:34:08,920
nuclear physicist electors and Friedman

2433
01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:12,750
you are listening to the parrot get the

2434
01:34:21,870 --> 01:34:19,570
gold standard a paranormal radio we

2435
01:34:23,700 --> 01:34:21,880
continue with David Kiser discussing

2436
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:23,710
cutting-edge science with Jean and Chris

2437
01:34:27,419 --> 01:34:25,570
some the power cast we're trying to keep

2438
01:34:30,629 --> 01:34:27,429
up with him okay because I didn't go to

2439
01:34:32,850 --> 01:34:30,639
MIT I didn't pretend to go at MIT I've

2440
01:34:35,070 --> 01:34:32,860
read the science literature but you know

2441
01:34:35,729 --> 01:34:35,080
we're trying to keep it at a sensible

2442
01:34:38,220 --> 01:34:35,739
level

2443
01:34:41,550 --> 01:34:38,230
okay David Kiser the other question is

2444
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:41,560
were involved in all these things that

2445
01:34:46,919 --> 01:34:44,800
impact space and time so can we travel

2446
01:34:49,379 --> 01:34:46,929
to the future can we travel to the past

2447
01:34:52,649 --> 01:34:49,389
can we take that quantum leap as they

2448
01:34:54,090 --> 01:34:52,659
say on the TV show well you know look we

2449
01:34:55,950 --> 01:34:54,100
can certainly travel to the future which

2450
01:34:58,080 --> 01:34:55,960
is just by sitting still and letting the

2451
01:34:59,729 --> 01:34:58,090
clock tick by could we could we make a

2452
01:35:01,919 --> 01:34:59,739
great leap toward the future then then

2453
01:35:06,209 --> 01:35:01,929
it gets more tricky and likewise for the

2454
01:35:08,879 --> 01:35:06,219
past so again I'd say the mainstream

2455
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:08,889
consensus seems to be no who's not yet

2456
01:35:14,879 --> 01:35:12,489
and yet you know relativity continues to

2457
01:35:16,350 --> 01:35:14,889
surprise it and so I wouldn't want to

2458
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:16,360
say never ever never under those

2459
01:35:20,820 --> 01:35:18,250
circumstances I think I haven't seen it

2460
01:35:22,950 --> 01:35:20,830
yet and that again could just be much as

2461
01:35:24,810 --> 01:35:22,960
must be my own limited imagination but

2462
01:35:27,419 --> 01:35:24,820
you know well to general relativity even

2463
01:35:30,180 --> 01:35:27,429
even canonical even just Einsteins

2464
01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:30,190
version of relativity has all kinds of

2465
01:35:34,050 --> 01:35:32,080
amazing features and there's a

2466
01:35:35,970 --> 01:35:34,060
flourishing kind of industry of

2467
01:35:37,890 --> 01:35:35,980
scientists working on expansions beyond

2468
01:35:39,899 --> 01:35:37,900
eyes as relativity where even more sort

2469
01:35:43,260 --> 01:35:39,909
of exotic or unexpected things could be

2470
01:35:45,479 --> 01:35:43,270
possible at least in theory so I haven't

2471
01:35:48,750 --> 01:35:45,489
you know I haven't seen the great proof

2472
01:35:50,430 --> 01:35:48,760
yet but you know very smart and earnest

2473
01:35:51,979 --> 01:35:50,440
people are working on it all the time at

2474
01:35:54,870 --> 01:35:51,989
least I'm not trying to understand that

2475
01:35:56,910 --> 01:35:54,880
on the theoretical level even if maybe

2476
01:35:58,470 --> 01:35:56,920
not building you know their own time

2477
01:36:01,379 --> 01:35:58,480
machines just yet we were talking about

2478
01:36:04,470 --> 01:36:01,389
some of the current buzzwords and and in

2479
01:36:07,260 --> 01:36:04,480
aspects of quantum physics that are now

2480
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:07,270
currently being answered about back in

2481
01:36:10,930 --> 01:36:09,130
the early 90s I seem to recall there was

2482
01:36:14,500 --> 01:36:10,940
a bit of a of

2483
01:36:16,330 --> 01:36:14,510
Lurie of interest in ColdFusion I

2484
01:36:19,420 --> 01:36:16,340
haven't heard anything about that

2485
01:36:22,410 --> 01:36:19,430
recently is this a dead area of inquiry

2486
01:36:26,439 --> 01:36:22,420
or study or where are we in that process

2487
01:36:28,060 --> 01:36:26,449
well you know I'm no expert in what's

2488
01:36:29,439 --> 01:36:28,070
going on most recently I do know it's

2489
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:29,449
not dead and says that there are still

2490
01:36:32,860 --> 01:36:31,010
people looking at in fact as a

2491
01:36:35,350 --> 01:36:32,870
sociologist decide to coined as the

2492
01:36:38,530 --> 01:36:35,360
undead side it's like a zombie thing

2493
01:36:40,450 --> 01:36:38,540
that she won't see not to die and some

2494
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:40,460
people at least there's a good

2495
01:36:45,670 --> 01:36:43,370
description and again I'm not I'm not

2496
01:36:46,900 --> 01:36:45,680
gonna cast aspersions on those who are

2497
01:36:47,650 --> 01:36:46,910
doing it now I just don't I'm not

2498
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:47,660
following you

2499
01:36:51,580 --> 01:36:49,489
I dunno they're you know the numbers

2500
01:36:53,740 --> 01:36:51,590
followed you now I think if dwindled

2501
01:36:57,100 --> 01:36:53,750
even from the heyday that you described

2502
01:36:58,420 --> 01:36:57,110
but it's not zero and so you know some

2503
01:37:00,850 --> 01:36:58,430
people are convinced there's still

2504
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:00,860
something there how about building

2505
01:37:05,740 --> 01:37:03,170
machines based on dark matter I've I've

2506
01:37:07,300 --> 01:37:05,750
been seeing somebody lately that there's

2507
01:37:11,740 --> 01:37:07,310
some question whether dark matter is

2508
01:37:13,750 --> 01:37:11,750
even real obviously theoretically you

2509
01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:13,760
know I know how put off is very

2510
01:37:19,270 --> 01:37:15,530
interested in it I know Sarfati has been

2511
01:37:21,490 --> 01:37:19,280
very interested in it in others but what

2512
01:37:22,930 --> 01:37:21,500
is this current this new development in

2513
01:37:26,530 --> 01:37:22,940
there where now the whole concept is

2514
01:37:27,850 --> 01:37:26,540
being being questioned well I'm not sure

2515
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:27,860
the specific that you're referring to I

2516
01:37:33,060 --> 01:37:30,890
do know in general either been a lot of

2517
01:37:35,410 --> 01:37:33,070
efforts you know dark matter is so

2518
01:37:37,479 --> 01:37:35,420
troubling right - most astrophysicists

2519
01:37:39,310 --> 01:37:37,489
because it's like who ordered that we

2520
01:37:41,410 --> 01:37:39,320
don't we don't want that stuff right it

2521
01:37:43,240 --> 01:37:41,420
means that again as I'm sure you even

2522
01:37:47,380 --> 01:37:43,250
listeners know means on the order of a

2523
01:37:49,510 --> 01:37:47,390
quarter about truff ly 25% of the energy

2524
01:37:51,100 --> 01:37:49,520
balance of the entire universe is stuff

2525
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:51,110
that we don't have any idea what it is

2526
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:52,730
and we've never detected it we can't

2527
01:37:56,020 --> 01:37:54,170
smell it we can't catch it in our

2528
01:37:58,870 --> 01:37:56,030
laboratory we haven't yet it despite

2529
01:38:01,120 --> 01:37:58,880
some very good tries and we have no

2530
01:38:03,520 --> 01:38:01,130
clear idea of what it might be a lots of

2531
01:38:04,810 --> 01:38:03,530
competing hypotheses and so it'll be

2532
01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:04,820
great if there were no need for talk

2533
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:06,770
matter at all if it was just one grand

2534
01:38:11,950 --> 01:38:10,010
mistake but that's been hard too I mean

2535
01:38:14,140 --> 01:38:11,960
again I won't discount every effort but

2536
01:38:16,330 --> 01:38:14,150
we think we understand Einstein's

2537
01:38:18,430 --> 01:38:16,340
relativity really really well with from

2538
01:38:22,660 --> 01:38:18,440
lots of angles with lots of sensitive

2539
01:38:24,250 --> 01:38:22,670
tests and if - relativity is to hold and

2540
01:38:24,810 --> 01:38:24,260
it really exceeded to my understanding

2541
01:38:27,210 --> 01:38:24,820
we

2542
01:38:29,250 --> 01:38:27,220
really do need this mysterious missing

2543
01:38:31,470 --> 01:38:29,260
matters dark matter to make sense of the

2544
01:38:34,260 --> 01:38:31,480
behavior of galaxies the way they rotate

2545
01:38:36,810 --> 01:38:34,270
the way they behave gravitationally and

2546
01:38:38,490 --> 01:38:36,820
so it could be that Einstein's

2547
01:38:40,260 --> 01:38:38,500
relativity is just wrong and there's

2548
01:38:41,850 --> 01:38:40,270
some other theory we don't know yet it's

2549
01:38:44,730 --> 01:38:41,860
so that's always possible right and

2550
01:38:45,870 --> 01:38:44,740
maybe that would make get away from the

2551
01:38:47,790 --> 01:38:45,880
need for dark matter it's a

2552
01:38:50,130 --> 01:38:47,800
gravitational interaction itself would

2553
01:38:52,590 --> 01:38:50,140
would give the same result without this

2554
01:38:54,330 --> 01:38:52,600
mysterious stuff but but that's I think

2555
01:38:56,760 --> 01:38:54,340
that would be fairly called a longshot

2556
01:38:58,560 --> 01:38:56,770
not impossible but a longshot and if we

2557
01:39:00,240 --> 01:38:58,570
and if gravity if galaxy's are behaving

2558
01:39:01,890 --> 01:39:00,250
the way we think they are the way we

2559
01:39:03,510 --> 01:39:01,900
think we understand they should then I

2560
01:39:05,310 --> 01:39:03,520
think we're largely stuck with this

2561
01:39:08,070 --> 01:39:05,320
missing you know this mystery of what is

2562
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:08,080
this stuff and so before we can build

2563
01:39:11,310 --> 01:39:09,370
machines out of it let's just go out

2564
01:39:14,220 --> 01:39:11,320
let's it detects them first let's go to

2565
01:39:15,750 --> 01:39:14,230
the lab yeah and then you then you can

2566
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:15,760
play with it first you gotta prove you

2567
01:39:20,730 --> 01:39:17,530
know kind of figure out what what

2568
01:39:23,100 --> 01:39:20,740
exactly it is because that's a heck of a

2569
01:39:25,470 --> 01:39:23,110
lot of I mean the universe is pretty

2570
01:39:28,410 --> 01:39:25,480
pretty big place in 25% of it just still

2571
01:39:30,330 --> 01:39:28,420
being an unknown as that must perplex a

2572
01:39:32,580 --> 01:39:30,340
lot of people here's another one now

2573
01:39:34,950 --> 01:39:32,590
Andrew kind of mentioned this one to me

2574
01:39:37,710 --> 01:39:34,960
before he was wondering if the Higgs

2575
01:39:39,930 --> 01:39:37,720
boson particle is not found at the Large

2576
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:39,940
Hadron Collider what happens to the

2577
01:39:44,940 --> 01:39:43,690
standard model yeah find that for our

2578
01:39:50,820 --> 01:39:44,950
listeners because their eyes are just

2579
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:50,830
glazed over so so a couple things

2580
01:39:53,730 --> 01:39:52,330
there's it the Higgs boson I guess

2581
01:39:56,340 --> 01:39:53,740
realist just might now it's often in the

2582
01:39:58,560 --> 01:39:56,350
news these days it's a so far still

2583
01:40:01,370 --> 01:39:58,570
hypothetical particle no one's had the

2584
01:40:04,020 --> 01:40:01,380
definitive you know observational

2585
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:04,030
measurements of it yet despite lots of

2586
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:05,890
trying so trying now so it's a

2587
01:40:09,780 --> 01:40:07,570
hypothetical particle that really is

2588
01:40:12,570 --> 01:40:09,790
central to our understanding of the

2589
01:40:15,150 --> 01:40:12,580
basic forces between parts of atoms

2590
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:15,160
between subatomic particles it's it's

2591
01:40:19,350 --> 01:40:17,290
one of the main mechanisms ik that

2592
01:40:20,910 --> 01:40:19,360
actually gives rise to math as they why

2593
01:40:22,770 --> 01:40:20,920
do you see an electron has a certain

2594
01:40:25,860 --> 01:40:22,780
mass instead of having no mass at all

2595
01:40:28,110 --> 01:40:25,870
and so it's it's um it's sort of it

2596
01:40:30,810 --> 01:40:28,120
conceptually it seems to literally hold

2597
01:40:33,780 --> 01:40:30,820
the whole the whole picture together

2598
01:40:35,220 --> 01:40:33,790
it's the only particle from that entire

2599
01:40:36,930 --> 01:40:35,230
what's called the standard model from

2600
01:40:38,040 --> 01:40:36,940
our understanding of the basic forces of

2601
01:40:39,959 --> 01:40:38,050
nature that is

2602
01:40:42,450 --> 01:40:39,969
been seen every other piece of the

2603
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:42,460
center model by now has been seen we can

2604
01:40:46,229 --> 01:40:44,530
you know captured in our labs you can

2605
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:46,239
mess around and measure them carefully

2606
01:40:51,540 --> 01:40:48,610
build stuff out of them in many cases

2607
01:40:52,799 --> 01:40:51,550
and the one ms the one missing component

2608
01:40:55,410 --> 01:40:52,809
the one piece that we just have never

2609
01:40:59,280 --> 01:40:55,420
ever seen directly is this this Higgs

2610
01:41:00,720 --> 01:40:59,290
particle so if it is not there at all

2611
01:41:02,600 --> 01:41:00,730
then you can play the usual game saying

2612
01:41:06,060 --> 01:41:02,610
well it must be in some different you

2613
01:41:08,160 --> 01:41:06,070
might have a different mass and we

2614
01:41:09,959 --> 01:41:08,170
thought a must lie outside the range we

2615
01:41:11,399 --> 01:41:09,969
need a bigger out of the Smasher but you

2616
01:41:13,910 --> 01:41:11,409
can only do that so far because then

2617
01:41:16,140 --> 01:41:13,920
other things start becoming you know and

2618
01:41:18,750 --> 01:41:16,150
inconsistent and so you can't play the

2619
01:41:20,310 --> 01:41:18,760
game too much more otherwise you could

2620
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:20,320
say maybe there just is no Higgs

2621
01:41:24,149 --> 01:41:22,690
particle and it and it's it's kinda back

2622
01:41:25,530 --> 01:41:24,159
to the drawing board in that case so

2623
01:41:27,299 --> 01:41:25,540
that's both exciting because we'll have

2624
01:41:29,790 --> 01:41:27,309
lots more to do and apply for y'all for

2625
01:41:32,010 --> 01:41:29,800
grants but but it's that would be that

2626
01:41:34,049 --> 01:41:32,020
would be a real big I think the word

2627
01:41:36,359 --> 01:41:34,059
shock would not be inappropriate that

2628
01:41:38,069 --> 01:41:36,369
would be a big big deal if they're just

2629
01:41:40,379 --> 01:41:38,079
honestly no Higgs we've been thinking

2630
01:41:41,609 --> 01:41:40,389
about this thing and drunk inclusions

2631
01:41:44,850 --> 01:41:41,619
about what struck what property that

2632
01:41:46,830 --> 01:41:44,860
must have since the early 60s and it

2633
01:41:48,839 --> 01:41:46,840
really isn't they are 50 years later you

2634
01:41:51,510 --> 01:41:48,849
know back that's gonna be a big deal

2635
01:41:52,830 --> 01:41:51,520
yeah that's a big deal you know well you

2636
01:41:57,149 --> 01:41:52,840
know I've been I've been reading some

2637
01:41:59,970 --> 01:41:57,159
rather alarmist blogs and articles about

2638
01:42:03,810 --> 01:41:59,980
people really being in a place of fear

2639
01:42:05,700 --> 01:42:03,820
about what's going on at CERN and you

2640
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:05,710
know you hear things bannered about like

2641
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:08,170
oh they're gonna create a wormhole or

2642
01:42:11,250 --> 01:42:09,730
they're gonna create something that's

2643
01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:11,260
gonna eat the earth and you know there's

2644
01:42:16,979 --> 01:42:13,449
a lot of alarmism out there and do you

2645
01:42:19,319 --> 01:42:16,989
think that that kind of thinking somehow

2646
01:42:22,319 --> 01:42:19,329
relates to the fact that science has

2647
01:42:24,660 --> 01:42:22,329
left ahead so far away from the common

2648
01:42:26,549 --> 01:42:24,670
you know your average Joe out there Joe

2649
01:42:28,979 --> 01:42:26,559
Sixpack is sitting there you know

2650
01:42:31,290 --> 01:42:28,989
watching the news and and do you think

2651
01:42:33,930 --> 01:42:31,300
that there's a really increasing gap

2652
01:42:36,270 --> 01:42:33,940
between between the ivory towers of

2653
01:42:38,100 --> 01:42:36,280
science and and the average person and

2654
01:42:40,859 --> 01:42:38,110
do you think that this somehow

2655
01:42:43,200 --> 01:42:40,869
can relate to what appears to be a real

2656
01:42:46,979 --> 01:42:43,210
upsurge in interest in the last couple

2657
01:42:48,569 --> 01:42:46,989
of decades in areas of in subjects that

2658
01:42:51,780 --> 01:42:48,579
most scientists just roll their eyes

2659
01:42:54,990 --> 01:42:51,790
whether it's you know all these ghosts

2660
01:42:58,140 --> 01:42:55,000
shows and in UFO shows and in this

2661
01:42:59,790 --> 01:42:58,150
interest in in more magical mystical

2662
01:43:02,070 --> 01:42:59,800
things do you think that that's a direct

2663
01:43:05,100 --> 01:43:02,080
result of this this increasing gap

2664
01:43:08,340 --> 01:43:05,110
between cutting-edge science quantum

2665
01:43:10,770 --> 01:43:08,350
theory and just these wonderful you know

2666
01:43:12,180 --> 01:43:10,780
leaps ahead that we're doing in terms of

2667
01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:12,190
our scientific knowledge do you think

2668
01:43:16,500 --> 01:43:15,130
that there's a relation there you know I

2669
01:43:17,910 --> 01:43:16,510
bet there isn't I bet there's other

2670
01:43:19,590 --> 01:43:17,920
things going on you know in the mix as

2671
01:43:20,820 --> 01:43:19,600
well but I wouldn't discount her I think

2672
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:20,830
I think you're right and I certainly

2673
01:43:25,710 --> 01:43:22,930
agree that this sort of increasing gap

2674
01:43:27,150 --> 01:43:25,720
between what sort of most people can be

2675
01:43:29,400 --> 01:43:27,160
expected to know or understand about

2676
01:43:31,050 --> 01:43:29,410
science and the kind of cutting edge I

2677
01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:31,060
think that I think that gap is getting

2678
01:43:38,340 --> 01:43:34,210
pretty wide and I think is also you know

2679
01:43:40,020 --> 01:43:38,350
there's you know the kind of late 60s if

2680
01:43:41,850 --> 01:43:40,030
I say the Watergate era you know in this

2681
01:43:43,680 --> 01:43:41,860
country there's been a lot less

2682
01:43:44,790 --> 01:43:43,690
inclination to just believe what the

2683
01:43:47,610 --> 01:43:44,800
experts are telling you no matter who

2684
01:43:49,770 --> 01:43:47,620
the experts are and so I think there's a

2685
01:43:52,050 --> 01:43:49,780
change in a kind of political culture or

2686
01:43:53,790 --> 01:43:52,060
maybe a media culture so it's not only

2687
01:43:55,230 --> 01:43:53,800
we don't understand that stuff but you

2688
01:43:57,090 --> 01:43:55,240
know who are you to tell me what what I

2689
01:43:58,410 --> 01:43:57,100
shouldn't even worry about like you know

2690
01:44:00,990 --> 01:43:58,420
like and I'm just done that has

2691
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:01,000
something behind it you know with just

2692
01:44:03,930 --> 01:44:02,410
having fancy letters after name doesn't

2693
01:44:05,550 --> 01:44:03,940
mean you know everything and we've been

2694
01:44:07,950 --> 01:44:05,560
surprised all the time before so there

2695
01:44:10,710 --> 01:44:07,960
can be a kind of concern you know are

2696
01:44:13,650 --> 01:44:10,720
the experts not telling us stuff might

2697
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:13,660
be might not be what can I say that

2698
01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:15,370
might not be a real cause for concern it

2699
01:44:19,050 --> 01:44:17,050
might not be vast conspiracies of evil

2700
01:44:20,910 --> 01:44:19,060
scientists behind the curtain but I can

2701
01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:20,920
understand why why people might be

2702
01:44:24,360 --> 01:44:22,690
worried you know do we know everything

2703
01:44:26,100 --> 01:44:24,370
we need to know they can tell me not to

2704
01:44:27,570 --> 01:44:26,110
worry but we've heard that before I'll

2705
01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:27,580
tell you though we have to do this break

2706
01:44:32,810 --> 01:44:29,290
we have David Kaiser the book is called

2707
01:44:35,370 --> 01:44:32,820
how the hippy saved physics science

2708
01:44:37,350 --> 01:44:35,380
counterculture and the quantum revival

2709
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:37,360
the co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene

2710
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:44,830
[Music]

2711
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:47,489
hi Ted Anderson announcing a great way

2712
01:44:51,529 --> 01:44:49,530
to listen to radio on the telephone by

2713
01:44:53,419 --> 01:44:51,539
calling seven six oh five six nine

2714
01:44:55,910 --> 01:44:53,429
seventy seven hundred you'll be hearing

2715
01:44:58,279 --> 01:44:55,920
juicy and live.com programs in seconds

2716
01:45:00,379 --> 01:44:58,289
come to GCN live.com find your favorite

2717
01:45:03,020 --> 01:45:00,389
host dedicated phone number and hear

2718
01:45:05,689 --> 01:45:03,030
them 24/7 you heard me right every show

2719
01:45:07,669 --> 01:45:05,699
has a dedicated phone number stop by GC

2720
01:45:10,069 --> 01:45:07,679
and live.com and bookmark their number

2721
01:45:12,739 --> 01:45:10,079
today and again that's seven six oh five

2722
01:45:14,330 --> 01:45:12,749
six nine seventy seven hundred hi this

2723
01:45:15,859 --> 01:45:14,340
is Ted Anderson have you ever wondered

2724
01:45:17,540 --> 01:45:15,869
why banks star Parker's investment

2725
01:45:19,009 --> 01:45:17,550
advisors won't talk about gold IRAs

2726
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:19,019
they've been available since nineteen

2727
01:45:22,279 --> 01:45:20,610
eighty six yet the financial industry

2728
01:45:22,969 --> 01:45:22,289
won't recognize the value of gold for

2729
01:45:24,709 --> 01:45:22,979
your retirement

2730
01:45:26,660 --> 01:45:24,719
gold has outperformed paper investments

2731
01:45:38,259 --> 01:45:26,670
yet no word about IRAs if you would like

2732
01:45:55,390 --> 01:45:39,570
806-853-9949

2733
01:46:00,929 --> 01:45:57,169
[Music]

2734
01:46:03,479 --> 01:46:00,939
this takes us to the final four of the

2735
01:46:05,939 --> 01:46:03,489
para cast David Kiser I cast I'm Jean

2736
01:46:08,759 --> 01:46:05,949
Chris O'Brien's with me you're in the

2737
01:46:11,669 --> 01:46:08,769
power cast I'm gonna ask you kind of

2738
01:46:13,459 --> 01:46:11,679
far-reaching question here which may or

2739
01:46:16,620 --> 01:46:13,469
may not relate to everything this

2740
01:46:19,770 --> 01:46:16,630
renewed emphasis in some quarters of the

2741
01:46:22,259 --> 01:46:19,780
political spectrum on what we didn't

2742
01:46:25,199 --> 01:46:22,269
consider science such as creationism

2743
01:46:27,750 --> 01:46:25,209
other things is there an anti science

2744
01:46:30,060 --> 01:46:27,760
movement going on trying to conserve

2745
01:46:31,830 --> 01:46:30,070
what we knew before and forget about

2746
01:46:36,060 --> 01:46:31,840
what we know now and what we hope to

2747
01:46:39,509 --> 01:46:36,070
know in the future us I hope not Jean I

2748
01:46:41,909 --> 01:46:39,519
think there are I think we find

2749
01:46:43,799 --> 01:46:41,919
tendencies like that I'm not sure so

2750
01:46:46,290 --> 01:46:43,809
much to sort of keep us from discovering

2751
01:46:48,060 --> 01:46:46,300
new things - I don't think that's what's

2752
01:46:50,279 --> 01:46:48,070
driving it I think it's you know I think

2753
01:46:52,169 --> 01:46:50,289
it's politics like like most politics if

2754
01:46:54,479 --> 01:46:52,179
people don't like a particular outcome

2755
01:46:57,299 --> 01:46:54,489
or policy then there could be efforts to

2756
01:46:59,520 --> 01:46:57,309
to use that to decide what legitimate to

2757
01:47:01,080 --> 01:46:59,530
- to study or to get funding for and all

2758
01:47:03,419 --> 01:47:01,090
the rest I think we saw a lot of that I

2759
01:47:06,270 --> 01:47:03,429
mean real sort of obvious bare

2760
01:47:08,879 --> 01:47:06,280
partisanship around science quite

2761
01:47:10,379 --> 01:47:08,889
frankly in the earlier years of this of

2762
01:47:12,689 --> 01:47:10,389
the 20th century in the United States

2763
01:47:13,919 --> 01:47:12,699
and I think independent ones politics I

2764
01:47:15,509 --> 01:47:13,929
think we can all agree there was a lot

2765
01:47:17,129 --> 01:47:15,519
of political meddling in a way that we

2766
01:47:20,100 --> 01:47:17,139
maybe hadn't been accustomed to seeing

2767
01:47:22,290 --> 01:47:20,110
for in quite so extreme ways in earlier

2768
01:47:24,509 --> 01:47:22,300
times so yeah I think as I mentioned

2769
01:47:26,580 --> 01:47:24,519
before you know I have a some modest

2770
01:47:28,500 --> 01:47:26,590
interest in following this kind of

2771
01:47:30,419 --> 01:47:28,510
intelligent design or creationism stuff

2772
01:47:32,850 --> 01:47:30,429
partly just because it sometimes it

2773
01:47:35,759 --> 01:47:32,860
impacts you know ideas about cosmology

2774
01:47:37,379 --> 01:47:35,769
or there's a kind of pushback around

2775
01:47:39,330 --> 01:47:37,389
what I consider actually really very

2776
01:47:40,649 --> 01:47:39,340
well-established ideas and other people

2777
01:47:41,549 --> 01:47:40,659
say you know that's just your opinion

2778
01:47:42,810 --> 01:47:41,559
and you have no right to teach our

2779
01:47:45,239 --> 01:47:42,820
children and all that kind of thing and

2780
01:47:47,189 --> 01:47:45,249
so you know that cut that's still around

2781
01:47:48,540 --> 01:47:47,199
it'll be integrally you know how that

2782
01:47:50,939 --> 01:47:48,550
settles out in the coming years

2783
01:47:52,889 --> 01:47:50,949
time one can't help but be reminded of

2784
01:47:55,529 --> 01:47:52,899
Pat Robertson's rather disturbing

2785
01:47:57,659 --> 01:47:55,539
comment about ten years ago where he

2786
01:48:00,569 --> 01:47:57,669
said that UFO believers should be stoned

2787
01:48:03,540 --> 01:48:00,579
that the heavens are for God the

2788
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:03,550
firmament is for man yet he bounces the

2789
01:48:07,680 --> 01:48:04,570
700 club

2790
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:07,690
satellites all over the whole Burkle I

2791
01:48:12,750 --> 01:48:10,330
guess I guess you want your cake and you

2792
01:48:15,110 --> 01:48:12,760
want to eat it too in that regard where

2793
01:48:17,970 --> 01:48:15,120
are we going now I mean what sort of

2794
01:48:20,790 --> 01:48:17,980
breakthroughs duh I mean I know you're

2795
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:20,800
you have your own area of expertise and

2796
01:48:27,060 --> 01:48:24,010
cosmology do you see anything on the

2797
01:48:29,820 --> 01:48:27,070
near horizon there might be some just

2798
01:48:31,650 --> 01:48:29,830
amazing breakthrough are there any areas

2799
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:31,660
that are particularly exciting right now

2800
01:48:35,310 --> 01:48:33,370
in science I think there are a lot of

2801
01:48:37,440 --> 01:48:35,320
areas that are really exciting you know

2802
01:48:39,270 --> 01:48:37,450
in my own little little universe so to

2803
01:48:41,970 --> 01:48:39,280
speak my little domain

2804
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:41,980
I think cosmology is again just an

2805
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:44,650
amazing place right now when I was

2806
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:46,090
starting out as a student not all that

2807
01:48:51,090 --> 01:48:48,850
long ago we could basically say with

2808
01:48:51,870 --> 01:48:51,100
confidence that certain basic parameters

2809
01:48:53,580 --> 01:48:51,880
of our universe

2810
01:48:55,380 --> 01:48:53,590
we're known to within a factor of two

2811
01:48:58,050 --> 01:48:55,390
awfully to within a factor of 10

2812
01:49:00,390 --> 01:48:58,060
that's not very precise right and now a

2813
01:49:02,820 --> 01:49:00,400
lot of the same parameters are known to

2814
01:49:05,610 --> 01:49:02,830
better than 1% accuracy and it's better

2815
01:49:07,710 --> 01:49:05,620
than 99% residual errors are incredibly

2816
01:49:10,500 --> 01:49:07,720
small and that happen in the space of 10

2817
01:49:12,690 --> 01:49:10,510
or 20 years and that has ruled out

2818
01:49:14,730 --> 01:49:12,700
certain ideas that has honed others that

2819
01:49:16,710 --> 01:49:14,740
pushed new ideas to the forefront and

2820
01:49:18,150 --> 01:49:16,720
that's only sort of still building up

2821
01:49:19,710 --> 01:49:18,160
steam there new satellites and

2822
01:49:21,810 --> 01:49:19,720
incredible instance being launched and

2823
01:49:23,760 --> 01:49:21,820
designed all the time so in that sense I

2824
01:49:25,620 --> 01:49:23,770
think cosmology is a growth area I think

2825
01:49:27,450 --> 01:49:25,630
it's incredibly exciting we have these

2826
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:27,460
stubborn questions like dark matter or

2827
01:49:31,110 --> 01:49:29,290
like dark energy like all the exotic

2828
01:49:32,970 --> 01:49:31,120
notions from Einstein's relativity we

2829
01:49:34,650 --> 01:49:32,980
still haven't fully explored and so

2830
01:49:36,930 --> 01:49:34,660
there's there's there's plenty of room

2831
01:49:38,730 --> 01:49:36,940
for really fun and intriguing stuff in

2832
01:49:40,500 --> 01:49:38,740
cosmology and that's just one area I

2833
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:40,510
think I think lots of people would have

2834
01:49:45,510 --> 01:49:43,570
similar excitement you know around as a

2835
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:45,520
nanotech or certainly quantum computing

2836
01:49:49,050 --> 01:49:46,930
or all kinds of areas within the

2837
01:49:50,970 --> 01:49:49,060
physical sciences well we have a new

2838
01:49:52,860 --> 01:49:50,980
telescope going up which I'm sure is

2839
01:49:55,080 --> 01:49:52,870
real exciting for you and your work the

2840
01:49:57,750 --> 01:49:55,090
James Webb telescope which would be kind

2841
01:50:00,960 --> 01:49:57,760
of the next generation Hubble what do

2842
01:50:02,550 --> 01:50:00,970
cosmologists in and astrophysicists what

2843
01:50:04,590 --> 01:50:02,560
are they expecting to be able to

2844
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:04,600
determine that's new and exciting with

2845
01:50:10,440 --> 01:50:07,930
this incredible leap forward in space

2846
01:50:11,460 --> 01:50:10,450
born technology so a lot of time with

2847
01:50:14,490 --> 01:50:11,470
these satellites what you're worrying

2848
01:50:16,230 --> 01:50:14,500
about increasing resolution on the sky

2849
01:50:17,550 --> 01:50:16,240
how finally can you just can you

2850
01:50:18,150 --> 01:50:17,560
distinguish between the objects and

2851
01:50:19,830 --> 01:50:18,160
that's partly why

2852
01:50:21,480 --> 01:50:19,840
Hubbell was such an amazing leap forward

2853
01:50:24,150 --> 01:50:21,490
to be able to see things that that

2854
01:50:26,010 --> 01:50:24,160
simply had not been seeable before and

2855
01:50:27,600 --> 01:50:26,020
the latest version is like you say you

2856
01:50:30,750 --> 01:50:27,610
should should do that you know better by

2857
01:50:32,430 --> 01:50:30,760
factors 10 or 20 or 100 same thing with

2858
01:50:34,500 --> 01:50:32,440
these more cosmologically oriented

2859
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:34,510
satellites as a plonk satellite named

2860
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:36,250
for max o'clock you know the quality

2861
01:50:41,400 --> 01:50:38,410
revolutionary that's already in orbit

2862
01:50:43,230 --> 01:50:41,410
it's not it's not to reporting data yet

2863
01:50:45,090 --> 01:50:43,240
but it's taking data and that again

2864
01:50:47,610 --> 01:50:45,100
would do for understanding the very

2865
01:50:49,830 --> 01:50:47,620
earliest moments of our universe about

2866
01:50:52,410 --> 01:50:49,840
you know 10 to 30 times better than the

2867
01:50:54,420 --> 01:50:52,420
best we have today and as we start being

2868
01:50:56,490 --> 01:50:54,430
able to really say is this how the

2869
01:50:58,710 --> 01:50:56,500
universe began or is that and you can

2870
01:50:59,970 --> 01:50:58,720
really start distinguishing is that it

2871
01:51:01,530 --> 01:50:59,980
is saying well all our ideas are

2872
01:51:04,020 --> 01:51:01,540
compatible with what we can know because

2873
01:51:05,370 --> 01:51:04,030
we have fuzzed out data you really get

2874
01:51:07,500 --> 01:51:05,380
down to the nitty-gritty and you start

2875
01:51:09,330 --> 01:51:07,510
getting surprises well also there's a

2876
01:51:13,140 --> 01:51:09,340
possibility of actually optically being

2877
01:51:17,370 --> 01:51:13,150
able to to see extrasolar planets as

2878
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:17,380
well with so X X or you know astronomy

2879
01:51:22,710 --> 01:51:20,170
the exoplanet stuff is incredible and

2880
01:51:23,910 --> 01:51:22,720
getting more so all the time that's you

2881
01:51:26,580 --> 01:51:23,920
know certainly aided by each of these

2882
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:26,590
leaps in technology as well as you know

2883
01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:28,210
period these these things are you're

2884
01:51:32,100 --> 01:51:29,530
also a time machines these are things

2885
01:51:34,530 --> 01:51:32,110
appearing back in time of almost 14

2886
01:51:36,540 --> 01:51:34,540
billion years ago and we can still take

2887
01:51:38,430 --> 01:51:36,550
a like a Polaroid you can take a

2888
01:51:40,890 --> 01:51:38,440
snapshot of this baby universe and

2889
01:51:41,970 --> 01:51:40,900
puzzle over it that's pretty amazing so

2890
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:41,980
we're not going to be able to see all

2891
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:43,690
the way back to the Big Bang obviously

2892
01:51:48,030 --> 01:51:45,250
but we're going to get pretty close I

2893
01:51:50,970 --> 01:51:48,040
would think within probably less than a

2894
01:51:53,760 --> 01:51:50,980
billion years if if memory serves me

2895
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:53,770
correctly I'm not I am no scientist

2896
01:51:59,270 --> 01:51:56,130
listeners do not try this at home

2897
01:52:02,130 --> 01:51:59,280
in fact we'll get back to to roughly

2898
01:52:05,130 --> 01:52:02,140
400,000 years after the Big Bang which

2899
01:52:07,530 --> 01:52:05,140
is say about 13.7 billion years ago it's

2900
01:52:10,320 --> 01:52:07,540
a long time 13.3 years oh yeah the big

2901
01:52:12,240 --> 01:52:10,330
concern here is of course how all this

2902
01:52:13,710 --> 01:52:12,250
cutting-edge research is being treated

2903
01:52:16,620 --> 01:52:13,720
especially now where we've reached the

2904
01:52:18,210 --> 01:52:16,630
point here where once again science

2905
01:52:20,370 --> 01:52:18,220
isn't getting the grants they used to

2906
01:52:22,470 --> 01:52:20,380
get we're so busy cutting spending we

2907
01:52:25,170 --> 01:52:22,480
don't think about the practical effect

2908
01:52:28,440 --> 01:52:25,180
well that's true and and it it is

2909
01:52:29,730 --> 01:52:28,450
worrying if there was you know I mean

2910
01:52:31,260 --> 01:52:29,740
there are budget battles all the time

2911
01:52:32,020 --> 01:52:31,270
our most recent budget battles have been

2912
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:32,030
more severe

2913
01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:34,370
course than than average and you know

2914
01:52:37,390 --> 01:52:35,690
every now and then there are efforts to

2915
01:52:38,680 --> 01:52:37,400
cut whole wings out of the National

2916
01:52:41,290 --> 01:52:38,690
Science Foundation just close them down

2917
01:52:43,270 --> 01:52:41,300
for example and so far at least those

2918
01:52:45,040 --> 01:52:43,280
those battles have been more heat than

2919
01:52:46,750 --> 01:52:45,050
light and they were I think a lot of

2920
01:52:49,270 --> 01:52:46,760
kind of political jockeying but maybe

2921
01:52:51,130 --> 01:52:49,280
not a maybe not quite as serious a

2922
01:52:52,630 --> 01:52:51,140
threat as a scene but who knows and you

2923
01:52:54,190 --> 01:52:52,640
know these days the congressional

2924
01:52:57,190 --> 01:52:54,200
battles are just getting quite frankly

2925
01:52:59,130 --> 01:52:57,200
more more difficult to understand I'll

2926
01:53:02,350 --> 01:52:59,140
put it that way and just more and more

2927
01:53:06,010 --> 01:53:02,360
uncertainty so yeah I think it is a kind

2928
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:06,020
of a difficult time now we're in a cycle

2929
01:53:08,950 --> 01:53:07,370
by cycle you know if you could if

2930
01:53:10,540 --> 01:53:08,960
they'll even be the foundation to apply

2931
01:53:12,130 --> 01:53:10,550
for your quick little you will you get

2932
01:53:13,990 --> 01:53:12,140
your grant but will there even be the

2933
01:53:15,910 --> 01:53:14,000
edifice there and again so far it's made

2934
01:53:19,180 --> 01:53:15,920
it through previous battles but it's

2935
01:53:22,630 --> 01:53:19,190
it's eerie stuff in your particular case

2936
01:53:24,700 --> 01:53:22,640
here and obviously you're teaching the

2937
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:24,710
new generation the new generation of the

2938
01:53:29,200 --> 01:53:27,170
scientists the ones who will maybe

2939
01:53:34,150 --> 01:53:29,210
figure out whether we can get a handle

2940
01:53:37,180 --> 01:53:34,160
on time travel on unlimited power space

2941
01:53:38,950 --> 01:53:37,190
travel all this stuff do you find your

2942
01:53:40,530 --> 01:53:38,960
class is getting bigger smaller what

2943
01:53:43,300 --> 01:53:40,540
kind of things are we interested in

2944
01:53:44,620 --> 01:53:43,310
they're pretty big and I think they've

2945
01:53:46,930 --> 01:53:44,630
gotten pretty big and that's exciting

2946
01:53:50,410 --> 01:53:46,940
and these are you incredibly incredibly

2947
01:53:52,510 --> 01:53:50,420
gifted passionate you know students a

2948
01:53:54,550 --> 01:53:52,520
lot more energy and ideas that's and

2949
01:53:57,100 --> 01:53:54,560
that's a good thing and so you know I

2950
01:53:59,410 --> 01:53:57,110
think for example MIT graduated more

2951
01:54:01,690 --> 01:53:59,420
physics majors is here than we have in

2952
01:54:03,580 --> 01:54:01,700
something like 30 or more years so

2953
01:54:04,930 --> 01:54:03,590
that's clearly the trend is growing yeah

2954
01:54:10,570 --> 01:54:04,940
that's excellent

2955
01:54:12,880 --> 01:54:10,580
that's good news well one of these kids

2956
01:54:14,410 --> 01:54:12,890
what stuff what's you know I mean are

2957
01:54:16,630 --> 01:54:14,420
they jazzed by anything in particular

2958
01:54:19,060 --> 01:54:16,640
right now or is it just go discipline by

2959
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:19,070
discipline by suppose I know there's a

2960
01:54:24,850 --> 01:54:22,010
lot of interest I am you know places

2961
01:54:26,860 --> 01:54:24,860
like India and China are producing just

2962
01:54:29,050 --> 01:54:26,870
amazing amounts of very very talented

2963
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:29,060
scientists I mean you know obviously

2964
01:54:35,470 --> 01:54:32,810
this country has you know had a lead and

2965
01:54:37,630 --> 01:54:35,480
you you know in just all these ingenious

2966
01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:37,640
scientists that you know you can point

2967
01:54:43,270 --> 01:54:40,610
to and in in you know in the past are we

2968
01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:43,280
going to be losing our lead in the

2969
01:54:45,479 --> 01:54:43,690
scientist

2970
01:54:47,160 --> 01:54:45,489
disciplines because of the you know

2971
01:54:48,300 --> 01:54:47,170
increased educational levels of these

2972
01:54:50,130 --> 01:54:48,310
other countries do you think we're

2973
01:54:52,350 --> 01:54:50,140
falling behind further and further or

2974
01:54:54,720 --> 01:54:52,360
are we holding our own it sounds like

2975
01:54:57,479 --> 01:54:54,730
there may be a maybe some hope for this

2976
01:55:00,660 --> 01:54:57,489
country and you know I had a I think I

2977
01:55:02,189 --> 01:55:00,670
mentioned on a prior show I was taking

2978
01:55:05,100 --> 01:55:02,199
some measurements to put a grill on a

2979
01:55:07,380 --> 01:55:05,110
wall grading and this 22 year old kid

2980
01:55:09,689 --> 01:55:07,390
high school graduate I asked him to

2981
01:55:12,300 --> 01:55:09,699
write down some numbers for me and I

2982
01:55:14,220 --> 01:55:12,310
said 33 and 3/4 and he said what what's

2983
01:55:17,220 --> 01:55:14,230
what do you mean 3/4 and I said well

2984
01:55:19,110 --> 01:55:17,230
it's point seven-five he goes well what

2985
01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:19,120
do you mean how do you write that and I

2986
01:55:24,390 --> 01:55:22,570
just I mean I literally almost fell off

2987
01:55:26,030 --> 01:55:24,400
the ladder I just could not believe that

2988
01:55:27,750 --> 01:55:26,040
this high school graduate

2989
01:55:29,250 --> 01:55:27,760
twenty-something year old kid didn't

2990
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:29,260
know what a fraction was it just

2991
01:55:33,630 --> 01:55:31,690
probably not unusual I've heard some

2992
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:33,640
well you know yeah let's do the break

2993
01:55:38,010 --> 01:55:35,890
David Kaiser joins us Chris O'Brien's

2994
01:55:41,630 --> 01:55:38,020
the co-host I'm gene Steinberg you're in

2995
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:44,000
[Music]

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set of fluoride and arsenic filters for

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we want to hear from you if you have a

3101
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comment or question about the pair cast

3102
02:00:05,760 --> 02:00:01,510
send it to News at Lapera cast calm

3103
02:00:07,470 --> 02:00:05,770
that's news at the Peres cast calm and

3104
02:00:10,410 --> 02:00:07,480
don't forget to visit our famous pair of

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cast community forums at forum dot the

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02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:14,139
para cast com get all the action at

3107
02:00:24,240 --> 02:00:21,610
forum dot the para cast comm so consider

3108
02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:24,250
that riddle me this is our knowledge of

3109
02:00:29,250 --> 02:00:27,010
the basics of science math are we

3110
02:00:31,260 --> 02:00:29,260
depending so much on the computers the

3111
02:00:33,899 --> 02:00:31,270
calculators that we've lost some of our

3112
02:00:36,089 --> 02:00:33,909
abilities David Kiser I put that

3113
02:00:37,500 --> 02:00:36,099
question to you you know I like most

3114
02:00:39,750 --> 02:00:37,510
things I think it's a mixed bag I know

3115
02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:39,760
many of my colleagues at MIT have

3116
02:00:43,350 --> 02:00:41,770
worried very very strongly about that

3117
02:00:46,020 --> 02:00:43,360
especially say in physics or mathematics

3118
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:46,030
do our students losing a kind of feel a

3119
02:00:50,310 --> 02:00:48,130
kind of intuition for the equations or

3120
02:00:52,169 --> 02:00:50,320
for a magnet order of magnitude near you

3121
02:00:54,060 --> 02:00:52,179
if you're not doing a lot of hands-on

3122
02:00:55,919 --> 02:00:54,070
stuff do you just if it's all just on a

3123
02:00:57,479 --> 02:00:55,929
computer screen India the same you feel

3124
02:00:59,339 --> 02:00:57,489
for it and you know I've heard pretty

3125
02:01:01,560 --> 02:00:59,349
convincing counter garments that the

3126
02:01:03,390 --> 02:01:01,570
computers you know can open up so many

3127
02:01:05,310 --> 02:01:03,400
more things enable these students to do

3128
02:01:07,260 --> 02:01:05,320
in ten minutes what a PhD would have had

3129
02:01:08,970 --> 02:01:07,270
to you know spend a monster before so

3130
02:01:11,310 --> 02:01:08,980
you know like all things I think it has

3131
02:01:12,540 --> 02:01:11,320
the pros and cons certainly you know it

3132
02:01:15,839 --> 02:01:12,550
is the case that a lot of these students

3133
02:01:17,669 --> 02:01:15,849
are such computer wizard in a very very

3134
02:01:19,229 --> 02:01:17,679
powerful productive way that they can

3135
02:01:21,479 --> 02:01:19,239
just you know I used to joke that I mean

3136
02:01:23,339 --> 02:01:21,489
I've almost no programming skills at all

3137
02:01:24,750 --> 02:01:23,349
so I just hire you know an eighteen year

3138
02:01:26,250 --> 02:01:24,760
old to do it in ten minutes it would

3139
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:26,260
take me a semester to figure it out so

3140
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:28,090
certainly there's a great amount of

3141
02:01:31,709 --> 02:01:30,010
skill and real enthusiasm there that I

3142
02:01:34,140 --> 02:01:31,719
think it's a great good thing is that at

3143
02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:34,150
the cost of you know other ways or older

3144
02:01:37,350 --> 02:01:35,650
ways of engaging with the material maybe

3145
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:37,360
but I'm not sure if a net loss maybe

3146
02:01:40,260 --> 02:01:38,770
it's different so we're still holding

3147
02:01:42,660 --> 02:01:40,270
our own out there in the world with all

3148
02:01:44,310 --> 02:01:42,670
these I think what China is graduating

3149
02:01:46,830 --> 02:01:44,320
why I figure out what the figure was I

3150
02:01:49,200 --> 02:01:46,840
think twice as many scientists basically

3151
02:01:51,390 --> 02:01:49,210
than we are I much don't quote me on now

3152
02:01:52,890 --> 02:01:51,400
and I I remember reading an article and

3153
02:01:55,439 --> 02:01:52,900
seeing the figure and just being like a

3154
02:01:58,169 --> 02:01:55,449
gas that it seems like this country is

3155
02:02:00,149 --> 02:01:58,179
slowly falling behind but like you said

3156
02:02:02,220 --> 02:02:00,159
you've seen a real upsurge in interest

3157
02:02:04,379 --> 02:02:02,230
in class sizes and right kids coming up

3158
02:02:06,029 --> 02:02:04,389
so maybe there's hope or we used to

3159
02:02:08,310 --> 02:02:06,039
continue falling further behind

3160
02:02:10,919 --> 02:02:08,320
well I think there is open you know the

3161
02:02:12,450 --> 02:02:10,929
numbers game is is only part of it what

3162
02:02:14,629 --> 02:02:12,460
are those numbers represent and again

3163
02:02:16,890 --> 02:02:14,639
there are you know a very world class

3164
02:02:18,629 --> 02:02:16,900
universities and scientists in China for

3165
02:02:20,009 --> 02:02:18,639
example now training great great people

3166
02:02:21,990 --> 02:02:20,019
but when you hear these numbers like

3167
02:02:23,609 --> 02:02:22,000
four hundred thousand new graduates this

3168
02:02:25,169 --> 02:02:23,619
year that year you know it takes a

3169
02:02:27,060 --> 02:02:25,179
little more effort to sort of unpack

3170
02:02:28,770 --> 02:02:27,070
what's the nature of that training what

3171
02:02:30,509 --> 02:02:28,780
are they doing with those skills just

3172
02:02:32,040 --> 02:02:30,519
handing out degrees or just counting

3173
02:02:33,450 --> 02:02:32,050
degrees I should say should be sort of

3174
02:02:36,750 --> 02:02:33,460
the start of that discussion and a lot

3175
02:02:38,339 --> 02:02:36,760
of times I think that becomes the end of

3176
02:02:40,350 --> 02:02:38,349
discussion instead and it actually

3177
02:02:42,060 --> 02:02:40,360
harkens back to similar debates we had

3178
02:02:43,350 --> 02:02:42,070
in this country during the Cold War

3179
02:02:45,509 --> 02:02:43,360
where this was the Soviet Union

3180
02:02:46,979 --> 02:02:45,519
graduating more physicists or engineers

3181
02:02:48,540 --> 02:02:46,989
than we were and if so with that you

3182
02:02:50,580 --> 02:02:48,550
know gonna mean Armageddon the numbers

3183
02:02:51,720 --> 02:02:50,590
can become pretty political and I think

3184
02:02:53,189 --> 02:02:51,730
there's other questions or additional

3185
02:02:55,169 --> 02:02:53,199
questions be asking as well so that's

3186
02:02:57,029 --> 02:02:55,179
where I again I I don't get quite as

3187
02:02:59,609 --> 02:02:57,039
nervous there are other indicators it's

3188
02:03:01,859 --> 02:02:59,619
certainly obviously the potential to raw

3189
02:03:04,109 --> 02:03:01,869
talent in places like China for science

3190
02:03:05,669 --> 02:03:04,119
is growing rapidly look at the number of

3191
02:03:07,109 --> 02:03:05,679
your highly cited articles of the

3192
02:03:09,089 --> 02:03:07,119
literature those things are growing very

3193
02:03:10,740 --> 02:03:09,099
rapidly so the other ways to say there

3194
02:03:12,479 --> 02:03:10,750
things are changing I don't think we're

3195
02:03:15,089 --> 02:03:12,489
gonna figure out out of the count just

3196
02:03:16,950 --> 02:03:15,099
yet we have to look also about what we

3197
02:03:19,560 --> 02:03:16,960
need to do in the future to encourage

3198
02:03:23,100 --> 02:03:19,570
this kind of research maybe cover more

3199
02:03:24,810 --> 02:03:23,110
about what these guys are doing today in

3200
02:03:27,299 --> 02:03:24,820
terms of their cutting edge developments

3201
02:03:28,740 --> 02:03:27,309
what are these guys up to now we kind of

3202
02:03:30,029 --> 02:03:28,750
talked a little bit about Jack Sarfati

3203
02:03:33,259 --> 02:03:30,039
and I think Nick Herbert but how about

3204
02:03:35,459 --> 02:03:33,269
the other members of your fund your fun

3205
02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:35,469
fundamentalist physics group characters

3206
02:03:39,359 --> 02:03:37,210
sure you know they they've traveled lots

3207
02:03:42,089 --> 02:03:39,369
of different roads so where they went

3208
02:03:43,529 --> 02:03:42,099
from Berkeley was a sort of revealing to

3209
02:03:45,180 --> 02:03:43,539
me and as interesting as what brought

3210
02:03:47,430 --> 02:03:45,190
them there so as one of them have

3211
02:03:49,740 --> 02:03:47,440
remained in sort of mainstream physics

3212
02:03:51,509 --> 02:03:49,750
so Henry staff has been a senior staff

3213
02:03:53,220 --> 02:03:51,519
scientist this whole time at the

3214
02:03:55,169 --> 02:03:53,230
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory a

3215
02:03:57,390 --> 02:03:55,179
very well-respected kind of mainstream

3216
02:03:59,310 --> 02:03:57,400
scientist with broad interests and he's

3217
02:04:00,810 --> 02:03:59,320
not afraid to ask uncomfortable

3218
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:00,820
questions about quantum theory in

3219
02:04:03,899 --> 02:04:02,050
consciousness but you know he's had a

3220
02:04:05,819 --> 02:04:03,909
paying job a publisher the right

3221
02:04:08,339 --> 02:04:05,829
journals he has a solid reputation

3222
02:04:10,109 --> 02:04:08,349
within the field you're John Clouser the

3223
02:04:12,569 --> 02:04:10,119
the experimental physicist who did that

3224
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:12,579
very first laboratory test of Bell's

3225
02:04:17,279 --> 02:04:15,610
Theorem back in 1972 he also has done

3226
02:04:18,930 --> 02:04:17,289
he'll extremely well in terms of

3227
02:04:19,680 --> 02:04:18,940
reputation he just won is a prestigious

3228
02:04:22,050 --> 02:04:19,690
prize

3229
02:04:24,750 --> 02:04:22,060
year called The Wolf Prize in Physics he

3230
02:04:26,820 --> 02:04:24,760
shared with Anton Zeilinger and Ilana sa

3231
02:04:29,010 --> 02:04:26,830
from Paris and as often seen as a kind

3232
02:04:31,500 --> 02:04:29,020
of you know one step shy of the Nobel

3233
02:04:33,990 --> 02:04:31,510
Prize and really amazing and I think

3234
02:04:35,970 --> 02:04:34,000
very well deserved recognition on in

3235
02:04:37,350 --> 02:04:35,980
hand yet he's never had a regular sort

3236
02:04:39,900 --> 02:04:37,360
of academic position in physics this

3237
02:04:41,459 --> 02:04:39,910
whole time to this day he runs a very

3238
02:04:43,260 --> 02:04:41,469
sophisticated laboratory out of his

3239
02:04:45,780 --> 02:04:43,270
garage and he's able to get research

3240
02:04:47,340 --> 02:04:45,790
funding grants from nationalist suits of

3241
02:04:48,930 --> 02:04:47,350
health for example to do medical imaging

3242
02:04:51,390 --> 02:04:48,940
he's gotten happens and he's a brilliant

3243
02:04:53,790 --> 02:04:51,400
guy he's incredibly productive but he

3244
02:04:57,150 --> 02:04:53,800
had to make his own way you know others

3245
02:04:59,310 --> 02:04:57,160
still survive mostly or flourish on sort

3246
02:05:01,380 --> 02:04:59,320
of you know private donations I always

3247
02:05:03,270 --> 02:05:01,390
joke that they're like Galileo in the

3248
02:05:05,430 --> 02:05:03,280
Renaissance like the de Medicis will pay

3249
02:05:07,350 --> 02:05:05,440
them to have their very wealthy generous

3250
02:05:08,670 --> 02:05:07,360
patrons they'll do their their work and

3251
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:08,680
will be on you know on someone else's

3252
02:05:12,930 --> 02:05:10,810
dime and and that's that's what a

3253
02:05:14,189 --> 02:05:12,940
private patrons model has worked yeah

3254
02:05:16,410 --> 02:05:14,199
for some of these folks for a long time

3255
02:05:17,880 --> 02:05:16,420
and others became best-selling authors

3256
02:05:20,010 --> 02:05:17,890
they were able to live off their kind of

3257
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:20,020
royalties from the books that allowed

3258
02:05:24,060 --> 02:05:21,850
them to keep keeping up the flames going

3259
02:05:26,100 --> 02:05:24,070
keep the torch alive and so certainly

3260
02:05:27,930 --> 02:05:26,110
for Jeff Kapur you know has been I think

3261
02:05:30,450 --> 02:05:27,940
the most successful of an author of this

3262
02:05:32,100 --> 02:05:30,460
group he followed up the success of the

3263
02:05:34,470 --> 02:05:32,110
Dow physics with a series of other books

3264
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:34,480
he's still writing still active and I

3265
02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:36,130
think some of those books became so

3266
02:05:40,380 --> 02:05:37,810
wildly successful that you know well

3267
02:05:42,810 --> 02:05:40,390
commercially that he was a kinda safe

3268
02:05:44,459 --> 02:05:42,820
spot and and you know Fred Alan wolf and

3269
02:05:46,979 --> 02:05:44,469
Nick Herbert have also been able to

3270
02:05:48,420 --> 02:05:46,989
basically stay afloat or more so largely

3271
02:05:50,070 --> 02:05:48,430
on the basis of their writing and the

3272
02:05:52,020 --> 02:05:50,080
two others became entrepreneurial to

3273
02:05:53,790 --> 02:05:52,030
start their own consulting companies one

3274
02:05:56,250 --> 02:05:53,800
of the founders of group George Weissman

3275
02:05:58,500 --> 02:05:56,260
actually began an import company for

3276
02:06:00,600 --> 02:05:58,510
Tibetan herbal remedies for a while and

3277
02:06:02,790 --> 02:06:00,610
that kind of thing so they've been

3278
02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:02,800
creative in other direction in the brain

3279
02:06:07,260 --> 02:06:05,770
brain tea yeah you know we all need some

3280
02:06:08,939 --> 02:06:07,270
rangy hey that's an interesting question

3281
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:08,949
there about cutting-edge science one of

3282
02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:10,930
the things we're looking at some ways to

3283
02:06:15,540 --> 02:06:13,570
enhance our memory and not just to deal

3284
02:06:18,330 --> 02:06:15,550
with Alzheimer's and stuff like that but

3285
02:06:21,330 --> 02:06:18,340
enhance on memory kind of make the gray

3286
02:06:24,300 --> 02:06:21,340
matter more functional and some people

3287
02:06:25,650 --> 02:06:24,310
say there's only 10% of our brain power

3288
02:06:29,040 --> 02:06:25,660
now there was a movie out called

3289
02:06:31,790 --> 02:06:29,050
limitless where Bradley Cooper plays his

3290
02:06:33,709 --> 02:06:31,800
character that he takes this in Jack

3291
02:06:36,580 --> 02:06:33,719
chin and suddenly he's using 100% of his

3292
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:36,590
brain power so is that real I don't know

3293
02:06:41,810 --> 02:06:38,730
I'd like to I like know where to get

3294
02:06:43,100 --> 02:06:41,820
them it's not like it meets on Planet of

3295
02:06:44,930 --> 02:06:43,110
the Apes movie as well might be pretty

3296
02:06:47,270 --> 02:06:44,940
similar in its premise at least that's

3297
02:06:49,790 --> 02:06:47,280
all about trying to deal with

3298
02:06:51,950 --> 02:06:49,800
Alzheimer's and a scientists tested on

3299
02:06:54,350 --> 02:06:51,960
the ape and that's the wrong thing to do

3300
02:06:58,250 --> 02:06:54,360
because rape is played by anti circus of

3301
02:07:00,140 --> 02:06:58,260
course is known as Gollum in rings

3302
02:07:03,260 --> 02:07:00,150
really is he was the performance artist

3303
02:07:03,979 --> 02:07:03,270
who actually created the first ape my

3304
02:07:05,680 --> 02:07:03,989
interested

3305
02:07:08,930 --> 02:07:05,690
well how about Cowboys and Aliens we

3306
02:07:10,100 --> 02:07:08,940
have you seen that yet gene or David you

3307
02:07:11,450 --> 02:07:10,110
know I have it I saw the preview only

3308
02:07:13,069 --> 02:07:11,460
they look like fun but I have attained

3309
02:07:14,959 --> 02:07:13,079
it it's interesting you know and you

3310
02:07:17,240 --> 02:07:14,969
pointed out to me that if you kind of

3311
02:07:19,459 --> 02:07:17,250
take an equation from what we consider

3312
02:07:21,439 --> 02:07:19,469
to be the time trade between the Big

3313
02:07:25,069 --> 02:07:21,449
Bang and now that some of the earliest

3314
02:07:27,770 --> 02:07:25,079
planets that Suns solar systems have had

3315
02:07:30,109 --> 02:07:27,780
about nine billion billion years to get

3316
02:07:32,330 --> 02:07:30,119
smart and to develop advanced

3317
02:07:34,430 --> 02:07:32,340
spacefaring technology well now he say

3318
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:34,440
no no no here once you said okay so the

3319
02:07:38,240 --> 02:07:36,210
universe is high everybody the universe

3320
02:07:40,250 --> 02:07:38,250
is 13.7 billion years old give or take

3321
02:07:42,680 --> 02:07:40,260
we now know that the earliest stars

3322
02:07:45,169 --> 02:07:42,690
started to shine a fraction of a billion

3323
02:07:46,580 --> 02:07:45,179
years after the bang about 360 million I

3324
02:07:47,390 --> 02:07:46,590
think it was that David wouldn't know

3325
02:07:49,609 --> 02:07:47,400
for sure

3326
02:07:51,919 --> 02:07:49,619
it took us as Homo sapiens sapiens about

3327
02:07:54,140 --> 02:07:51,929
four billion years to get smart from

3328
02:07:55,640 --> 02:07:54,150
zero and so you put it all together with

3329
02:07:58,879 --> 02:07:55,650
the age of the universe you could say

3330
02:08:00,530 --> 02:07:58,889
that the oldest smart civilization and

3331
02:08:03,439 --> 02:08:00,540
that we could envisage would be about

3332
02:08:04,640 --> 02:08:03,449
nine billion years old and that's quite

3333
02:08:06,649 --> 02:08:04,650
an interesting number if you're

3334
02:08:10,669 --> 02:08:06,659
interested in UFOs and that sort of

3335
02:08:11,750 --> 02:08:10,679
thing is it not time to sort of get here

3336
02:08:13,700 --> 02:08:11,760
and back or something like that

3337
02:08:16,399 --> 02:08:13,710
or - I don't know totally manipulated

3338
02:08:18,080 --> 02:08:16,409
entire galaxies who knows the level of

3339
02:08:20,870 --> 02:08:18,090
technology that you could develop in

3340
02:08:23,359 --> 02:08:20,880
that that amount of time I think Michio

3341
02:08:28,459 --> 02:08:23,369
Kaku came up with a with a rating system

3342
02:08:31,520 --> 02:08:28,469
of sophistication and ability to I guess

3343
02:08:33,919 --> 02:08:31,530
impact their reality and go into the

3344
02:08:35,689 --> 02:08:33,929
rating system and the reality Kaiser

3345
02:08:41,010 --> 02:08:35,699
joins us Christopher Brian's the co-host

3346
02:08:41,020 --> 02:08:44,350
[Music]

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02:08:48,680 --> 02:08:46,550
graphic converter is the image

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could use it for slideshows you could

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use it to import images from digital

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cameras or from scanners need to do some

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graphic converter also print catalogs

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for graphic converter go to Lemke soft

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and has just discovered a new bioactive

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it's called proto grow and it's so

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effective at producing rapid plant

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creating maximum plant growth in minimum

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nutritional have taken plants proto

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double or triple the potency of herbs or

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who want to grow dirt cheap superfood

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should visit the proto girl website and

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3404
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3405
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moving at highway speed while the guy

3406
02:11:01,520 --> 02:10:58,929
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tired of searching for great talk radio

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02:12:58,850 --> 02:12:55,910
hi this is ted phillips listening to the

3449
02:13:06,590 --> 02:12:58,860
parrot cat and it's as good as it gets

3450
02:13:09,230 --> 02:13:06,600
believe me we continue with David Kiser

3451
02:13:11,840 --> 02:13:09,240
last two segments exploring cutting

3452
02:13:14,000 --> 02:13:11,850
edges of science and what all those

3453
02:13:16,250 --> 02:13:14,010
hippies did I'm Jean Steinberg the

3454
02:13:20,330 --> 02:13:16,260
co-host is Chris O'Brien some question

3455
02:13:22,940 --> 02:13:20,340
here could we have today a group of 2011

3456
02:13:24,770 --> 02:13:22,950
hippies who maybe even now are trying to

3457
02:13:27,290 --> 02:13:24,780
figure out what science will be like for

3458
02:13:29,270 --> 02:13:27,300
the next 50 years I think we could you

3459
02:13:32,270 --> 02:13:29,280
know I in the book in the epilogue by

3460
02:13:35,270 --> 02:13:32,280
saying is I think there's a wider safety

3461
02:13:38,930 --> 02:13:35,280
net this time around and then then in

3462
02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:38,940
the 70s for for people for ideas or just

3463
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:40,410
a little bit further from from

3464
02:13:43,910 --> 02:13:43,050
mainstream their whole Institute's

3465
02:13:46,970 --> 02:13:43,920
they're kind of brick-and-mortar

3466
02:13:48,590 --> 02:13:46,980
Institute's that are devoted to I didn't

3467
02:13:51,830 --> 02:13:48,600
like the foundations of quantum theory

3468
02:13:54,170 --> 02:13:51,840
quantum cosmology and all the rest there

3469
02:13:56,030 --> 02:13:54,180
are also the internet-based funding

3470
02:13:57,410 --> 02:13:56,040
agencies for lack of a better word so

3471
02:13:59,090 --> 02:13:57,420
they're not even face to face but there

3472
02:14:01,280 --> 02:13:59,100
are you know private donations that

3473
02:14:04,100 --> 02:14:01,290
going to be parceled out there's a group

3474
02:14:06,980 --> 02:14:04,110
called fqx I have fundamental questions

3475
02:14:08,780 --> 02:14:06,990
Institute and they give grants basically

3476
02:14:10,820 --> 02:14:08,790
you know modest size grants to people

3477
02:14:12,410 --> 02:14:10,830
some of whom are university professors

3478
02:14:14,330 --> 02:14:12,420
others of whom are independent scholars

3479
02:14:16,960 --> 02:14:14,340
is the kind of euphemism for folks on

3480
02:14:19,610 --> 02:14:16,970
their own and you know there's a way to

3481
02:14:21,410 --> 02:14:19,620
get that stuff to keep it keep the

3482
02:14:24,440 --> 02:14:21,420
people asking the questions to make sure

3483
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:24,450
they're not really kind of lost and also

3484
02:14:28,100 --> 02:14:26,610
of course in the Internet age to to to

3485
02:14:29,660 --> 02:14:28,110
get the stuff to circulate so a lot of

3486
02:14:32,240 --> 02:14:29,670
garbage can circulate on the internet

3487
02:14:35,510 --> 02:14:32,250
there's no way to stop that but it's not

3488
02:14:37,430 --> 02:14:35,520
impossible to get ideas circulating and

3489
02:14:39,770 --> 02:14:37,440
bouncing off other folks and interacting

3490
02:14:42,530 --> 02:14:39,780
there too so I think I think there there

3491
02:14:44,180 --> 02:14:42,540
is room for groups like the one I wrote

3492
02:14:46,670 --> 02:14:44,190
about these days and they might not be

3493
02:14:48,110 --> 02:14:46,680
quite as have quite as hard a time as it

3494
02:14:50,630 --> 02:14:48,120
quite frankly you know getting resources

3495
02:14:53,000 --> 02:14:50,640
getting the word out finding meeting up

3496
02:14:55,490 --> 02:14:53,010
even if only in cyberspace with

3497
02:14:58,370 --> 02:14:55,500
like-minded folks and so I think I think

3498
02:15:00,860 --> 02:14:58,380
is I think I think that continues

3499
02:15:02,419 --> 02:15:00,870
as a question here hold on yeah there's

3500
02:15:04,010 --> 02:15:02,429
been a recent paper I wanted you to

3501
02:15:06,649 --> 02:15:04,020
comment on it if you possibly could in

3502
02:15:08,600 --> 02:15:06,659
on the fundamentals of quantum mechanics

3503
02:15:10,160 --> 02:15:08,610
and I do please excuse me I cannot

3504
02:15:12,110 --> 02:15:10,170
remember the full names of the authors

3505
02:15:14,120 --> 02:15:12,120
but there's a Stephanie axe very

3506
02:15:15,800 --> 02:15:14,130
attractive young lady from Australia or

3507
02:15:17,300 --> 02:15:15,810
everything it is and a chap from

3508
02:15:18,860 --> 02:15:17,310
Cambridge again his name I don't

3509
02:15:21,350 --> 02:15:18,870
remember and the title of the paper is

3510
02:15:22,910 --> 02:15:21,360
something like nonlocality in quantum

3511
02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:22,920
uncertainty in the century they found a

3512
02:15:26,600 --> 02:15:24,810
very deep connection this was published

3513
02:15:29,180 --> 02:15:26,610
only in the last three to six months on

3514
02:15:30,620 --> 02:15:29,190
our Heath whether it'll make it to face

3515
02:15:32,750 --> 02:15:30,630
rev D lettuce or something I don't know

3516
02:15:35,419 --> 02:15:32,760
but it was called mana locality and

3517
02:15:37,490 --> 02:15:35,429
quantum uncertainty relating nonlocality

3518
02:15:39,770 --> 02:15:37,500
to Heisenberg's uncertainty you know

3519
02:15:41,240 --> 02:15:39,780
it's a very deep result which seems to

3520
02:15:42,890 --> 02:15:41,250
have been well received though I wonder

3521
02:15:44,270 --> 02:15:42,900
if you would comment on it do you think

3522
02:15:47,140 --> 02:15:44,280
it's pushed the the field of

3523
02:15:49,700 --> 02:15:47,150
understanding the the roots of quantum

3524
02:15:51,410 --> 02:15:49,710
mechanics further forward for us if

3525
02:15:53,180 --> 02:15:51,420
you're familiar with it well

3526
02:15:55,100 --> 02:15:53,190
unfortunately I don't know this paper in

3527
02:15:57,410 --> 02:15:55,110
particular sigh I can't say either way

3528
02:15:59,209 --> 02:15:57,420
but it certainly is an example of this

3529
02:16:02,030 --> 02:15:59,219
notion there are now lots and lots of

3530
02:16:03,680 --> 02:16:02,040
people all over the world who are you

3531
02:16:05,510 --> 02:16:03,690
know concerned as members of this group

3532
02:16:07,220 --> 02:16:05,520
that I write about we're concerned in

3533
02:16:08,810 --> 02:16:07,230
the past with this sort of deep

3534
02:16:11,540 --> 02:16:08,820
structure the deep foundations of

3535
02:16:13,160 --> 02:16:11,550
quantum theory and now adays you know

3536
02:16:14,419 --> 02:16:13,170
there it one can get those papers

3537
02:16:15,860 --> 02:16:14,429
published more readily they can

3538
02:16:17,390 --> 02:16:15,870
circulate pretty easily so I don't know

3539
02:16:18,979 --> 02:16:17,400
this particular one but it's an example

3540
02:16:20,720 --> 02:16:18,989
of that kind of activity that they

3541
02:16:22,879 --> 02:16:20,730
really have the kind of foothold back at

3542
02:16:26,810 --> 02:16:22,889
the table again it's no longer kind of

3543
02:16:27,950 --> 02:16:26,820
laughed out of court you know it almost

3544
02:16:29,959 --> 02:16:27,960
sounds like we're getting to a point

3545
02:16:33,410 --> 02:16:29,969
where we're starting to see unification

3546
02:16:36,350 --> 02:16:33,420
of theories that tend to be and then

3547
02:16:37,940 --> 02:16:36,360
almost like we're reweaving the the

3548
02:16:39,770 --> 02:16:37,950
strands of the rope and we're starting

3549
02:16:42,889 --> 02:16:39,780
to really get closer to some fundamental

3550
02:16:44,839 --> 02:16:42,899
fundamental science at the core you know

3551
02:16:48,620 --> 02:16:44,849
the connecting point between a lot of

3552
02:16:50,270 --> 02:16:48,630
these these questions and you know just

3553
02:16:51,620 --> 02:16:50,280
the whole idea of this urn

3554
02:16:54,650 --> 02:16:51,630
project and the Large Hadron Collider

3555
02:16:55,759 --> 02:16:54,660
and the success that they've had I think

3556
02:16:58,850 --> 02:16:55,769
now they're going to go up to full power

3557
02:17:00,259 --> 02:16:58,860
if I'm not mistaken I think you gotta be

3558
02:17:03,290 --> 02:17:00,269
in about a year

3559
02:17:06,379 --> 02:17:03,300
what any ideas what we could expect from

3560
02:17:09,379 --> 02:17:06,389
a full power test and of colliding

3561
02:17:11,719 --> 02:17:09,389
particles at CERN well I mean so again

3562
02:17:13,940 --> 02:17:11,729
one is certainly to be hoped for is

3563
02:17:16,190 --> 02:17:13,950
really definitive evidence if it's to be

3564
02:17:17,959 --> 02:17:16,200
had for this Higgs boson all we talked

3565
02:17:21,140 --> 02:17:17,969
about before this one sort of missing

3566
02:17:23,660 --> 02:17:21,150
characters one central but yet as yet

3567
02:17:26,000 --> 02:17:23,670
unseen piece of the puzzle in how the

3568
02:17:30,230 --> 02:17:26,010
mira matter goes together i'm so-called

3569
02:17:32,509 --> 02:17:30,240
yes so so that is i say pretty likely to

3570
02:17:35,419 --> 02:17:32,519
be hoped for development and then you

3571
02:17:37,429 --> 02:17:35,429
know it's all kinds of things so it

3572
02:17:40,870 --> 02:17:37,439
could be there are reasons to suspect

3573
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:40,880
that one might be able to catch real

3574
02:17:45,110 --> 02:17:43,530
glance real evidence for extra

3575
02:17:46,850 --> 02:17:45,120
dimensions through exotic ways that

3576
02:17:49,129 --> 02:17:46,860
particles would behave momenta would be

3577
02:17:51,560 --> 02:17:49,139
measured and so on in these exotic

3578
02:17:53,780 --> 02:17:51,570
interactions so all of a sudden the LHC

3579
02:17:55,879 --> 02:17:53,790
could it's a long shop is not impossible

3580
02:17:58,129 --> 02:17:55,889
could be telling us about you know the

3581
02:17:59,540 --> 02:17:58,139
the most basic structure spacetime even

3582
02:18:02,540 --> 02:17:59,550
beyond the sort of little particles that

3583
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:02,550
dance around within it or in an exciting

3584
02:18:06,379 --> 02:18:04,050
but maybe a little bit more mundane way

3585
02:18:08,390 --> 02:18:06,389
it could hopefully be finding candidates

3586
02:18:09,620 --> 02:18:08,400
for this dark matter stuff particles of

3587
02:18:11,509 --> 02:18:09,630
the sort we've never seen before

3588
02:18:13,400 --> 02:18:11,519
perhaps cuz you never were looking at

3589
02:18:16,870 --> 02:18:13,410
the right energy scale until we're able

3590
02:18:19,790 --> 02:18:16,880
to now or signs or other kind of exotic

3591
02:18:21,589 --> 02:18:19,800
symmetries or notions about how what

3592
02:18:23,509 --> 02:18:21,599
governs these these subatomic forces

3593
02:18:25,490 --> 02:18:23,519
that have so far really only been

3594
02:18:28,009 --> 02:18:25,500
hypothesized there's been no solid

3595
02:18:29,929 --> 02:18:28,019
evidence really either way for often for

3596
02:18:31,790 --> 02:18:29,939
decades and so a lot of people are

3597
02:18:32,900 --> 02:18:31,800
excited saying we should no matter what

3598
02:18:35,419 --> 02:18:32,910
we find it'll be new

3599
02:18:37,969 --> 02:18:35,429
it'll be beyond what we already know and

3600
02:18:39,799 --> 02:18:37,979
a lot of them could be hopefully could

3601
02:18:41,419 --> 02:18:39,809
be very you know very loaded pointers

3602
02:18:43,850 --> 02:18:41,429
they could say it's really this road and

3603
02:18:47,179 --> 02:18:43,860
not the other one for moving forward in

3604
02:18:49,549 --> 02:18:47,189
every era that we study science we kind

3605
02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:49,559
of think we've got it pretty well under

3606
02:18:53,780 --> 02:18:52,050
control now we know kind of what's going

3607
02:18:56,089 --> 02:18:53,790
on with the universe and then fifty

3608
02:19:02,060 --> 02:18:56,099
years later they seem like a bunch of

3609
02:19:06,379 --> 02:19:02,070
Neanderthals you know that's our gene

3610
02:19:08,419 --> 02:19:06,389
but pardon maybe maybe uh maybe homo

3611
02:19:11,660 --> 02:19:08,429
sapien not without the sapiens a peon

3612
02:19:14,000 --> 02:19:11,670
man wise the wise your being that we all

3613
02:19:15,830 --> 02:19:14,010
tend to think that we have a handle on

3614
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:15,840
what's happening in science and then we

3615
02:19:21,980 --> 02:19:19,050
find something else that shows hey we

3616
02:19:23,690 --> 02:19:21,990
barely knew what was going on so do you

3617
02:19:24,679 --> 02:19:23,700
think there's a point where we could no

3618
02:19:26,719 --> 02:19:24,689
ever know

3619
02:19:28,939 --> 02:19:26,729
all that there is to know it's kind of a

3620
02:19:32,120 --> 02:19:28,949
simplistic question but one that people

3621
02:19:33,259 --> 02:19:32,130
do ask and I think the answer is no and

3622
02:19:35,509 --> 02:19:33,269
I think for the reason you were saying

3623
02:19:37,849 --> 02:19:35,519
before I mean I think you're right that

3624
02:19:40,069 --> 02:19:37,859
we have been I would say surprised and

3625
02:19:41,870 --> 02:19:40,079
maybe humbled maybe hadn't been humbled

3626
02:19:43,790 --> 02:19:41,880
enough given what we should have been

3627
02:19:45,319 --> 02:19:43,800
you know tied like it's a time to time

3628
02:19:48,049 --> 02:19:45,329
again you don't have to go back all that

3629
02:19:49,399 --> 02:19:48,059
far so it's not often it's not only then

3630
02:19:51,199 --> 02:19:49,409
we find out we were wrong about

3631
02:19:53,090 --> 02:19:51,209
something we deep deeply believed in

3632
02:19:54,199 --> 02:19:53,100
dearly held but then most of what we

3633
02:19:55,910 --> 02:19:54,209
were worried about was sort of becomes

3634
02:19:57,290 --> 02:19:55,920
irrelevant I mean it's not neither right

3635
02:19:59,239 --> 02:19:57,300
nor wrong so much as a different the

3636
02:20:01,309 --> 02:19:59,249
wrong question to be asking it's that

3637
02:20:04,460 --> 02:20:01,319
kind of upheaval that really does happen

3638
02:20:06,380 --> 02:20:04,470
it happens every few decades if not you

3639
02:20:09,319 --> 02:20:06,390
know century is that kind of scale at

3640
02:20:10,729 --> 02:20:09,329
the very least and you know on the one

3641
02:20:12,679 --> 02:20:10,739
hand that's incredibly exciting on the

3642
02:20:15,109 --> 02:20:12,689
other hand you say well what are we

3643
02:20:17,239 --> 02:20:15,119
worrying about so deeply now they might

3644
02:20:18,469 --> 02:20:17,249
turn out to be a non-problem nothing

3645
02:20:20,750 --> 02:20:18,479
will solve it it just won't even be a

3646
02:20:22,729 --> 02:20:20,760
problem anymore when seen from the

3647
02:20:25,250 --> 02:20:22,739
vantage point of some new later set of

3648
02:20:26,719 --> 02:20:25,260
ideas so yeah it's you know I wouldn't

3649
02:20:28,849 --> 02:20:26,729
want to be the one thing we look we've

3650
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:28,859
got it we're done I don't think that was

3651
02:20:33,050 --> 02:20:31,050
ever gonna be a winning position that

3652
02:20:35,179 --> 02:20:33,060
one that reminds me of the the head of

3653
02:20:37,489 --> 02:20:35,189
the US Patent Office in the late 1890s

3654
02:20:39,080 --> 02:20:37,499
and the famous quote that everything

3655
02:20:43,639 --> 02:20:39,090
that can be invented has been invented

3656
02:20:45,019 --> 02:20:43,649
so I always wonder about the 6,000

3657
02:20:47,960 --> 02:20:45,029
patents that Apple and some other

3658
02:20:50,389 --> 02:20:47,970
companies just bought because they were

3659
02:20:52,429 --> 02:20:50,399
newly invented but I won't get into the

3660
02:20:55,370 --> 02:20:52,439
situation here whether patents are being

3661
02:20:57,679 --> 02:20:55,380
granted for trivial inventions or such

3662
02:21:00,080 --> 02:20:57,689
broad-based inventions that of course

3663
02:21:03,080 --> 02:21:00,090
anybody is in violation that gets to be

3664
02:21:05,779 --> 02:21:03,090
almost ridiculous but you know let's go

3665
02:21:07,399 --> 02:21:05,789
back since we mentioned Einstein and now

3666
02:21:10,819 --> 02:21:07,409
a lot of people looking to go beyond

3667
02:21:13,219 --> 02:21:10,829
Einstein and maybe he says yeah of

3668
02:21:15,290 --> 02:21:13,229
course the speed of light is supposedly

3669
02:21:19,010 --> 02:21:15,300
the maximum but we can find tricks

3670
02:21:23,960 --> 02:21:19,020
around that so after all these years how

3671
02:21:25,429 --> 02:21:23,970
good was Einstein's vision well I'd say

3672
02:21:27,949 --> 02:21:25,439
it was it was awfully good

3673
02:21:29,389 --> 02:21:27,959
and so I night it turns out was human he

3674
02:21:32,000 --> 02:21:29,399
was wrong a lot of the time like every

3675
02:21:34,849 --> 02:21:32,010
other human ever has been and I don't

3676
02:21:37,099 --> 02:21:34,859
think that's a great fault of his to

3677
02:21:38,120 --> 02:21:37,109
have to admit that on the other hand you

3678
02:21:42,020 --> 02:21:38,130
know

3679
02:21:43,639 --> 02:21:42,030
just about a century later or really you

3680
02:21:44,929 --> 02:21:43,649
know coming up on a century since

3681
02:21:47,450 --> 02:21:44,939
general relativity well over a century

3682
02:21:49,600 --> 02:21:47,460
since special relativity coming up on

3683
02:21:52,490 --> 02:21:49,610
the century in quantum theory I mean

3684
02:21:54,440 --> 02:21:52,500
we're still living in many ways in

3685
02:21:56,450 --> 02:21:54,450
Einstein's world and we still think

3686
02:21:59,179 --> 02:21:56,460
about things largely in ways that he had

3687
02:22:00,410 --> 02:21:59,189
encouraged or taught us to and there

3688
02:22:01,760 --> 02:22:00,420
aren't many other people for whom we can

3689
02:22:03,800 --> 02:22:01,770
sing that that's an amazing

3690
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:03,810
accomplishment that we've been able to

3691
02:22:08,030 --> 02:22:06,090
find things in his ideas that he hadn't

3692
02:22:10,250 --> 02:22:08,040
even anticipated but that the structure

3693
02:22:11,840 --> 02:22:10,260
the you know the the fabric was there

3694
02:22:14,120 --> 02:22:11,850
and it's led us to discover even new

3695
02:22:16,940 --> 02:22:14,130
things that they were kind of latent and

3696
02:22:18,740 --> 02:22:16,950
you know it's he wasn't right about

3697
02:22:20,810 --> 02:22:18,750
every last thing no one is but but what

3698
02:22:24,710 --> 02:22:20,820
he gave us it has been well worth it

3699
02:22:26,630 --> 02:22:24,720
it's been an astonishing picture and I

3700
02:22:29,990 --> 02:22:26,640
think actually a very exciting one so

3701
02:22:32,000 --> 02:22:30,000
much to learn so little time David

3702
02:22:34,250 --> 02:22:32,010
Kaiser is our guests Chris O'Brien's the

3703
02:22:36,380 --> 02:22:34,260
co-host um Jean Steinberg you're in the

3704
02:22:42,310 --> 02:22:36,390
para cast

3705
02:22:46,650 --> 02:22:44,120
[Music]

3706
02:22:49,200 --> 02:22:46,660
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3707
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order online the site went down they

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3709
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3710
02:22:56,460 --> 02:22:54,700
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3808
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Radio Network providing the world with

3809
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hard-hitting talk radio G C

3810
02:27:00,390 --> 02:26:57,650
[Music]

3811
02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:00,400
hi my name is Richard Dolan you're

3812
02:27:06,990 --> 02:27:02,330
listening to the Peres Cass

3813
02:27:10,050 --> 02:27:07,000
[Music]

3814
02:27:12,570 --> 02:27:10,060
we're back one more session with David

3815
02:27:14,519 --> 02:27:12,580
Kaiser I'm Jean Steinberg the co-host is

3816
02:27:17,490 --> 02:27:14,529
Chris O'Brien Chris is your friend have

3817
02:27:20,040 --> 02:27:17,500
any more questions yeah and you David I

3818
02:27:22,290 --> 02:27:20,050
think you think there's a sort of a

3819
02:27:25,650 --> 02:27:22,300
paradigm that's rather a bit matter

3820
02:27:26,550 --> 02:27:25,660
about physics you know is it is physics

3821
02:27:30,179 --> 02:27:26,560
fashion

3822
02:27:33,740 --> 02:27:30,189
by that I mean this if you really widen

3823
02:27:37,889 --> 02:27:33,750
it out to extra dimensions found by the

3824
02:27:40,050 --> 02:27:37,899
LHC if you say that I have something

3825
02:27:42,389 --> 02:27:40,060
that's even deeper than a mean earth is

3826
02:27:45,090 --> 02:27:42,399
symmetry theorem which says that for

3827
02:27:47,719 --> 02:27:45,100
every conservation law there's a

3828
02:27:50,340 --> 02:27:47,729
corresponding symmetry principle

3829
02:27:52,410 --> 02:27:50,350
absolutely fundamentally deep thing to

3830
02:27:54,510 --> 02:27:52,420
say about the universe somebody comes

3831
02:27:56,250 --> 02:27:54,520
along next week and says well I can

3832
02:27:58,920 --> 02:27:56,260
actually go deep with an emmy noether

3833
02:28:00,450 --> 02:27:58,930
and say and say something much more

3834
02:28:02,429 --> 02:28:00,460
fundamental than that you know which

3835
02:28:04,229 --> 02:28:02,439
sort of like undercuts the what we call

3836
02:28:06,990 --> 02:28:04,239
the fundamentals and goes even deeper

3837
02:28:09,330 --> 02:28:07,000
and sets out a substrate upon which a

3838
02:28:12,000 --> 02:28:09,340
lot more things can be understood it it

3839
02:28:15,479 --> 02:28:12,010
renders Newton even more archaic it

3840
02:28:18,030 --> 02:28:15,489
renders Einstein passe and so forth

3841
02:28:21,300 --> 02:28:18,040
seems to me that we do have this sort of

3842
02:28:23,880 --> 02:28:21,310
fashionable aspect of physics which you

3843
02:28:26,309 --> 02:28:23,890
know is our current that zeitgeist of

3844
02:28:28,380 --> 02:28:26,319
general relativity and quantum mechanics

3845
02:28:31,050 --> 02:28:28,390
do you really think that zeitgeist has

3846
02:28:33,479 --> 02:28:31,060
got any sense of true permanence in a

3847
02:28:35,099 --> 02:28:33,489
large sense fast forward five hundred

3848
02:28:37,080 --> 02:28:35,109
years and look at the exponential rate

3849
02:28:39,750 --> 02:28:37,090
of the increase of knowledge do we

3850
02:28:43,110 --> 02:28:39,760
really believe the QM and GR will will

3851
02:28:45,330 --> 02:28:43,120
be around as as as paradigms in say 500

3852
02:28:47,010 --> 02:28:45,340
years - well it's a great question and I

3853
02:28:48,780 --> 02:28:47,020
think the answer is no but that's not a

3854
02:28:50,670 --> 02:28:48,790
reason for despair at least as I see it

3855
02:28:52,500 --> 02:28:50,680
and it you know we still teach our

3856
02:28:54,540 --> 02:28:52,510
students Newton's mechanics right that's

3857
02:28:56,519 --> 02:28:54,550
you know not 500 years since Newton but

3858
02:28:59,099 --> 02:28:56,529
several hundred and so we no longer

3859
02:29:01,950 --> 02:28:59,109
think the universe runs exactly as

3860
02:29:03,750 --> 02:29:01,960
Newton had taught us but the way of

3861
02:29:05,660 --> 02:29:03,760
analyzing things we can observe that

3862
02:29:07,860 --> 02:29:05,670
Newton had bequeathed is still

3863
02:29:09,920 --> 02:29:07,870
unbelievably helpful and powerful and

3864
02:29:12,750 --> 02:29:09,930
our newer ideas have to you know kind of

3865
02:29:14,130 --> 02:29:12,760
incorporate those results even as they

3866
02:29:16,349 --> 02:29:14,140
move beyond them and I think that is

3867
02:29:18,030 --> 02:29:16,359
likely to be what's gonna happen with

3868
02:29:19,500 --> 02:29:18,040
both quantum mechanics and general to me

3869
02:29:20,820 --> 02:29:19,510
I don't think either them is necessary

3870
02:29:23,040 --> 02:29:20,830
final word certainly general tivity

3871
02:29:24,900 --> 02:29:23,050
there all kinds of reasons from from

3872
02:29:26,760 --> 02:29:24,910
within the structure of general tivity

3873
02:29:27,929 --> 02:29:26,770
say this probably isn't everything right

3874
02:29:30,809 --> 02:29:27,939
this might be pointing to where it

3875
02:29:33,690 --> 02:29:30,819
itself might break down but any other

3876
02:29:37,920 --> 02:29:33,700
grand next grander more amazing you know

3877
02:29:39,389 --> 02:29:37,930
strange concoction it is likely to

3878
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:39,399
incorporate at least the things that we

3879
02:29:43,530 --> 02:29:41,770
have really wrestled with hard about

3880
02:29:46,050 --> 02:29:43,540
Einstein's relativity so they those

3881
02:29:49,200 --> 02:29:46,060
might not be anymore the fundamental you

3882
02:29:50,940 --> 02:29:49,210
know a bedrock answer for why things

3883
02:29:52,889 --> 02:29:50,950
behave the way they do but it would be a

3884
02:29:54,240 --> 02:29:52,899
pretty good account for why they do and

3885
02:29:56,670 --> 02:29:54,250
might have a kind of underneath

3886
02:29:58,650 --> 02:29:56,680
reasonings matter that would on which

3887
02:30:00,240 --> 02:29:58,660
that would rest much like we'd say with

3888
02:30:02,670 --> 02:30:00,250
say Newton's laws today or Maxwell's

3889
02:30:04,950 --> 02:30:02,680
equations for electricity magnetism and

3890
02:30:06,450 --> 02:30:04,960
we still you know MIT students still all

3891
02:30:08,550 --> 02:30:06,460
the time will buy t-shirts with

3892
02:30:10,050 --> 02:30:08,560
Maxwell's equations on the front which I

3893
02:30:13,050 --> 02:30:10,060
love they was wearing to my class and

3894
02:30:14,250 --> 02:30:13,060
you know we'd say Oh max equations do we

3895
02:30:16,260 --> 02:30:14,260
now know about quantum theory and

3896
02:30:17,639 --> 02:30:16,270
electrons and charges things that the

3897
02:30:19,830 --> 02:30:17,649
makkal didn't even know about

3898
02:30:21,780 --> 02:30:19,840
and yet the equations are both worth

3899
02:30:23,099 --> 02:30:21,790
putting on a t-shirt and worth teaching

3900
02:30:25,260 --> 02:30:23,109
four semesters at a time because they're

3901
02:30:26,639 --> 02:30:25,270
incredibly powerful and that captured

3902
02:30:28,830 --> 02:30:26,649
something about the world you even if

3903
02:30:30,719 --> 02:30:28,840
they're not the final final word I mean

3904
02:30:33,660 --> 02:30:30,729
indeed I mean we have this incredible

3905
02:30:35,490 --> 02:30:33,670
checks and balances on web in place now

3906
02:30:38,490 --> 02:30:35,500
that just wasn't there a hundred years

3907
02:30:40,440 --> 02:30:38,500
ago so every new thing that we posit has

3908
02:30:43,349 --> 02:30:40,450
to pass all the tests that we've thought

3909
02:30:45,480 --> 02:30:43,359
of since that time and as we go on in

3910
02:30:47,700 --> 02:30:45,490
time would you not agree that the checks

3911
02:30:50,099 --> 02:30:47,710
and balances are very very good guide to

3912
02:30:51,840 --> 02:30:50,109
where to go next but I see also a dark

3913
02:30:54,630 --> 02:30:51,850
side to that do you not also that

3914
02:30:56,700 --> 02:30:54,640
perhaps it might be inhibitory and in

3915
02:30:58,769 --> 02:30:56,710
terms of making large leaves well I see

3916
02:30:59,940 --> 02:30:58,779
what you mean and so uh that was part of

3917
02:31:01,679 --> 02:30:59,950
what I was interested in in writing this

3918
02:31:04,800 --> 02:31:01,689
book actually you know when does the

3919
02:31:07,500 --> 02:31:04,810
mainstream rule out questions or somehow

3920
02:31:09,510 --> 02:31:07,510
you know who trey is not not question is

3921
02:31:11,130 --> 02:31:09,520
worth asking I think that's that becomes

3922
02:31:12,420 --> 02:31:11,140
dangerous I do think that's right or at

3923
02:31:14,429 --> 02:31:12,430
least you know I wouldn't want to see

3924
02:31:16,559 --> 02:31:14,439
that that can be overdone and that's

3925
02:31:18,120 --> 02:31:16,569
what I think groups like the one I wrote

3926
02:31:20,639 --> 02:31:18,130
about in Berkeley in the 70s you know

3927
02:31:23,040 --> 02:31:20,649
they were no longer beholden to those

3928
02:31:25,410 --> 02:31:23,050
kind of we might say fashions or the

3929
02:31:26,849 --> 02:31:25,420
opinions of the mainstream they carved

3930
02:31:29,330 --> 02:31:26,859
out this parallel universe and and and

3931
02:31:31,950 --> 02:31:29,340
kind of crawled back in that level of

3932
02:31:33,211 --> 02:31:31,960
the out-of-the-box thinking that I think

3933
02:31:34,591 --> 02:31:33,221
is better support

3934
02:31:36,421 --> 02:31:34,601
now than back then that's why I say

3935
02:31:38,730 --> 02:31:36,431
there's there's a wider safety net now

3936
02:31:40,861 --> 02:31:38,740
for ideas that are not necessarily in

3937
02:31:42,720 --> 02:31:40,871
that sense fashionable or going along

3938
02:31:44,131 --> 02:31:42,730
with what most people already believe we

3939
02:31:46,020 --> 02:31:44,141
have I think really good reasons to

3940
02:31:47,251 --> 02:31:46,030
believe what we do but let's not you

3941
02:31:50,551 --> 02:31:47,261
know lose sight of the fact that these

3942
02:31:52,711 --> 02:31:50,561
are likely to be upended or these could

3943
02:31:54,031 --> 02:31:52,721
be upended as well and so in that sense

3944
02:31:56,310 --> 02:31:54,041
I think you're right that there can be a

3945
02:31:58,171 --> 02:31:56,320
kind of taste question that that doesn't

3946
02:31:59,730 --> 02:31:58,181
smell like a good topic they'll work on

3947
02:32:02,011 --> 02:31:59,740
it and that I think could be a very

3948
02:32:03,901 --> 02:32:02,021
difficult situation to overcome for

3949
02:32:06,421 --> 02:32:03,911
young scientists start it out let me

3950
02:32:08,791 --> 02:32:06,431
just ask a fast question here as we're

3951
02:32:11,821 --> 02:32:08,801
getting to the tail end of this program

3952
02:32:14,430 --> 02:32:11,831
and that is false research we hear about

3953
02:32:16,741 --> 02:32:14,440
occasionally where people either claim

3954
02:32:19,711 --> 02:32:16,751
to have scientific credentials or don't

3955
02:32:23,310 --> 02:32:19,721
or they falsify the research they try to

3956
02:32:25,441 --> 02:32:23,320
take shortcuts how do you have checks

3957
02:32:29,161 --> 02:32:25,451
and balances in the system to overcome

3958
02:32:31,111 --> 02:32:29,171
this tendency you're right I would say

3959
02:32:32,730 --> 02:32:31,121
at least as much now as in other periods

3960
02:32:34,261 --> 02:32:32,740
from from anyway that it's hard to get

3961
02:32:36,390 --> 02:32:34,271
good measures on the frequency of these

3962
02:32:38,791 --> 02:32:36,400
things but there is reason to believe it

3963
02:32:40,591 --> 02:32:38,801
and we haven't you know licks at system

3964
02:32:41,911 --> 02:32:40,601
the part of I think we can understand

3965
02:32:44,220 --> 02:32:41,921
some of the motivations for why it

3966
02:32:45,451 --> 02:32:44,230
happens and those motivations are

3967
02:32:48,001 --> 02:32:45,461
probably not gonna go away anytime soon

3968
02:32:50,551 --> 02:32:48,011
it has to do with things like you know

3969
02:32:52,531 --> 02:32:50,561
talked about before well ego but also I

3970
02:32:54,060 --> 02:32:52,541
would say even more mundane difficulty

3971
02:32:57,121 --> 02:32:54,070
of getting research grants you know the

3972
02:32:58,621 --> 02:32:57,131
kind of rat race of trying to get get

3973
02:33:00,211 --> 02:32:58,631
your get the resources you need to ask

3974
02:33:02,251 --> 02:33:00,221
the hard questions there can certainly

3975
02:33:03,541 --> 02:33:02,261
be temptations to cut quarters that

3976
02:33:05,220 --> 02:33:03,551
specific copy that doesn't make it right

3977
02:33:07,531 --> 02:33:05,230
it also can make it pretty hard to catch

3978
02:33:09,421 --> 02:33:07,541
with people will say oh so I on peer

3979
02:33:11,761 --> 02:33:09,431
review peer review of course is fallible

3980
02:33:13,470 --> 02:33:11,771
there was a famous case from just about

3981
02:33:15,361 --> 02:33:13,480
a decade ago at Bell Labs or a young

3982
02:33:17,041 --> 02:33:15,371
researcher had to retract I think at

3983
02:33:18,720 --> 02:33:17,051
least 20 articles that were published

3984
02:33:21,211 --> 02:33:18,730
not just in any old peer-reviewed

3985
02:33:23,281 --> 02:33:21,221
journals but in science nature Physical

3986
02:33:24,961 --> 02:33:23,291
Review Letters the most prestigious most

3987
02:33:26,970 --> 02:33:24,971
carefully vetted Journal on the planet

3988
02:33:28,621 --> 02:33:26,980
and these were not one or two but I

3989
02:33:30,211 --> 02:33:28,631
think on the order of 20 of them that

3990
02:33:32,071 --> 02:33:30,221
were formally retracted something like

3991
02:33:34,081 --> 02:33:32,081
that so it's not a peer review is

3992
02:33:36,121 --> 02:33:34,091
important but if that's not the panacea

3993
02:33:38,520 --> 02:33:36,131
on it so I think you know we can

3994
02:33:40,261 --> 02:33:38,530
understand the part of the kind of

3995
02:33:42,631 --> 02:33:40,271
sociology behind on how it might happen

3996
02:33:45,291 --> 02:33:42,641
and you know quite frankly I don't have

3997
02:33:47,100 --> 02:33:45,301
a good answer other than you know

3998
02:33:48,810 --> 02:33:47,110
obviously peer review

3999
02:33:51,270 --> 02:33:48,820
be careful vetting and a kind of

4000
02:33:52,831 --> 02:33:51,280
openness and in datasets and all that

4001
02:33:54,450 --> 02:33:52,841
which might might go some part of the

4002
02:33:56,251 --> 02:33:54,460
way but it's I don't think we're gonna

4003
02:33:57,780 --> 02:33:56,261
lick it I think that's that's you know I

4004
02:33:59,430 --> 02:33:57,790
don't think is a huge problem I want an

4005
02:34:01,320 --> 02:33:59,440
exaggerated thing every it's behind

4006
02:34:03,301 --> 02:34:01,330
every corner but it's you know it's

4007
02:34:06,331 --> 02:34:03,311
there that hasn't gone away and by the

4008
02:34:08,791 --> 02:34:06,341
same token the availability of grants in

4009
02:34:10,410 --> 02:34:08,801
certain areas of research that kind of

4010
02:34:12,570 --> 02:34:10,420
precludes other areas unless there's

4011
02:34:14,671 --> 02:34:12,580
bunch of hippies sitting in a coffee

4012
02:34:17,700 --> 02:34:14,681
shop in San Francisco and thinking about

4013
02:34:20,581 --> 02:34:17,710
the future well I mean it goes back to

4014
02:34:22,501 --> 02:34:20,591
the question of fads and fashions and

4015
02:34:25,020 --> 02:34:22,511
you know there are kind of taste makers

4016
02:34:26,011 --> 02:34:25,030
in science believe it or not and so

4017
02:34:29,430 --> 02:34:26,021
you're right you want to make sure that

4018
02:34:31,770 --> 02:34:29,440
those are not sort of really cutting off

4019
02:34:33,331 --> 02:34:31,780
ideas or people who always have things

4020
02:34:35,940 --> 02:34:33,341
to contribute even if they might not be

4021
02:34:37,591 --> 02:34:35,950
in that same direction well what's in

4022
02:34:40,470 --> 02:34:37,601
the future for you I'm sure this book is

4023
02:34:42,120 --> 02:34:40,480
being well received and and do you have

4024
02:34:43,470 --> 02:34:42,130
any other books in the works or any

4025
02:34:45,421 --> 02:34:43,480
other literary projects that you're

4026
02:34:49,140 --> 02:34:45,431
working on or what's what's on your

4027
02:34:50,551 --> 02:34:49,150
event horizon though on the physics side

4028
02:34:52,110 --> 02:34:50,561
I'm indeed still working on the

4029
02:34:54,030 --> 02:34:52,120
cosmology actually trying to play with

4030
02:34:56,280 --> 02:34:54,040
an idea that might combine the Higgs

4031
02:34:57,780 --> 02:34:56,290
boson with a modification of Einstein's

4032
02:34:59,490 --> 02:34:57,790
relativity to understand the other

4033
02:35:02,041 --> 02:34:59,500
universe I don't think it's the best

4034
02:35:03,270 --> 02:35:02,051
answer it's it's intriguing and then in

4035
02:35:04,921 --> 02:35:03,280
terms of books you know there's a

4036
02:35:07,171 --> 02:35:04,931
project I'm working on that I've been

4037
02:35:09,001 --> 02:35:07,181
really enjoying it's a political history

4038
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:09,011
of Einstein's gravity let's understand

4039
02:35:13,440 --> 02:35:11,410
general relativity like these hippies

4040
02:35:15,301 --> 02:35:13,450
has always embedded in times in places

4041
02:35:17,671 --> 02:35:15,311
the people who are spending their their

4042
02:35:20,190 --> 02:35:17,681
their lives studying it are you know

4043
02:35:21,450 --> 02:35:20,200
interrupted by war they're involved in

4044
02:35:22,950 --> 02:35:21,460
the Cold War they're involved in all

4045
02:35:24,390 --> 02:35:22,960
kinds of things and it's a way of

4046
02:35:26,810 --> 02:35:24,400
understanding heinous science and

4047
02:35:29,310 --> 02:35:26,820
context in a very kind of immediate

4048
02:35:31,680 --> 02:35:29,320
personal way and that stretches over

4049
02:35:32,520 --> 02:35:31,690
really the entire 20th century so that's

4050
02:35:34,650 --> 02:35:32,530
a book I've actually really been

4051
02:35:36,900 --> 02:35:34,660
enjoying as well another book on sort of

4052
02:35:38,430 --> 02:35:36,910
the politics of science policy and how

4053
02:35:41,400 --> 02:35:38,440
do we how do we handle things like

4054
02:35:43,171 --> 02:35:41,410
challenges from either the Soviet Union

4055
02:35:45,841 --> 02:35:43,181
or more recently China and India about

4056
02:35:47,430 --> 02:35:45,851
these numbers of degrees granted per

4057
02:35:49,410 --> 02:35:47,440
year and that kind of thing is there's a

4058
02:35:50,820 --> 02:35:49,420
how does that shape what we think

4059
02:35:52,650 --> 02:35:50,830
science should be like or what we want

4060
02:35:54,211 --> 02:35:52,660
to train our students to do so that's

4061
02:35:55,560 --> 02:35:54,221
another book that I'm shipping away an

4062
02:35:57,150 --> 02:35:55,570
excellent worthy worthy

4063
02:36:00,810 --> 02:35:57,160
topics

4064
02:36:02,850 --> 02:36:00,820
much luck in success in again if those

4065
02:36:04,679 --> 02:36:02,860
books are anything like how the hippies

4066
02:36:06,480 --> 02:36:04,689
say physics I'll be reading them that's

4067
02:36:08,850 --> 02:36:06,490
for sure I really did enjoy the book and

4068
02:36:11,940 --> 02:36:08,860
you know it was really kind of you to

4069
02:36:14,250 --> 02:36:11,950
come on a lowly paranormal show and and

4070
02:36:15,810 --> 02:36:14,260
talk some science and I was very

4071
02:36:18,060 --> 02:36:15,820
grateful to have Andrew Powe from in

4072
02:36:20,370 --> 02:36:18,070
here it was quite the scientist in his

4073
02:36:22,980 --> 02:36:20,380
own right and it's been a real pleasure

4074
02:36:24,929 --> 02:36:22,990
David and thank you so much for for

4075
02:36:27,150 --> 02:36:24,939
being on the show and I think gene will

4076
02:36:28,380 --> 02:36:27,160
agree that this this is going to be an

4077
02:36:30,780 --> 02:36:28,390
exciting episode and we're going to

4078
02:36:32,730 --> 02:36:30,790
generate quite a bit of banter I'm sure

4079
02:36:35,820 --> 02:36:32,740
on the pair of cast forums which is

4080
02:36:39,630 --> 02:36:35,830
located at forum dr. Peric ascom for all

4081
02:36:41,130 --> 02:36:39,640
you you know future posters let's get a

4082
02:36:43,260 --> 02:36:41,140
thread going on this show this is going

4083
02:36:45,389 --> 02:36:43,270
to be a lot of fun the book of course is

4084
02:36:47,969 --> 02:36:45,399
called how the hippies same physics

4085
02:36:50,010 --> 02:36:47,979
science counterculture and the quantum

4086
02:36:52,650 --> 02:36:50,020
revival the gas has been David Kiser

4087
02:36:54,960 --> 02:36:52,660
professor MIT David thanks for joining

4088
02:36:56,340 --> 02:36:54,970
us this week on the power cast well

4089
02:37:09,600 --> 02:36:56,350
thank you so much I really enjoyed it I

4090
02:37:16,031 --> 02:37:13,121
the para cast featuring gene Steinberg

4091
02:37:19,020 --> 02:37:16,041
and Christopher O'Brien is a copyrighted

4092
02:37:22,751 --> 02:37:19,030
presentation of making the impossible